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Abortions.

I just want to say, I was raised supporting abortion rights. It's been a huge ideological divide pretty much my entire life, but these contradictions in rights have me leaning more towards limiting abortion considerably.

Just as Moe pointed out, the parties involved made their choice at the point when either of them could have prevented conception and didn't. Of course, in cases of rape, coercion, deception or medical circumstances then I think abortion should be allowed, no question, but I really question the justice of it as a birth control option based on the issues being discussed here.
 
Once there is a child, they have the same legal options that women have.

What? That's not true.

Situation: 17 year old Girl gets pregnant by her 17 year old boy friend. They break up, he doesn't know she's pregnant. Next time he has contact he's being ordered to provide a DNA sample. It comes back matching the child he didn't know he had and he's ordered to pay child support.

Is that just an urban legend? I swear that happens.
 
Can you acknowledge the point being made? This is not about males whining about not being able to exert privilege.

It's not directly about male privilege, but it's certainly at play in various reactions by some of the men in this thread, particularly from some who, in almost every other sphere, seem to emphasize personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of one's actions.

Just like there are women (or girls in many cases) who find themselves ill-equipped in every conceivable way to deal with the fetus they conceived via consensual sex, men (boys) can find themselves in that very same situation. Currently the female has several options in how she wants to proceed and the male has none. The female makes his choice for him. Can you not see that there is a certain amount of injustice in that or is it acceptable because the entire male community enjoys privilege, even though an individual boy in this situation is not guilty of creating that social dynamic? He has to pay for the sins of his fathers as it were?

Why is the boy being "guilty of creating that social dynamic" relevant?

The female has one, temporary, additional option that the male does not, and only because it is her body that the fetus will use. I see *nothing* unfair about the female getting an additional choice because of that additional burden. You might as well whine about only tall people being hired to play basketball in the NBA.
 
Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
Once there is a child, they have the same legal options that women have.

What? That's not true.

Situation: 17 year old Girl gets pregnant by her 17 year old boy friend. They break up, he doesn't know she's pregnant. Next time he has contact he's being ordered to provide a DNA sample. It comes back matching the child he didn't know he had and he's ordered to pay child support.

Is that just an urban legend? I swear that happens.

Was your situation supposed to rebut the point I made? If so, I missed how it does that. Can you clarify why you think it does?
 
You have a point, but it still doesn't add up. You of all people should be on board.. less laws and regulation means less government. Making a person responsible for themselves instead of having rules, laws, and regulations within reason seems to be your thing. That's all I'm advocating in this situation.

yah. . . . I've been a bit fuzzy in my thinking, not a whole lot better than some others. If you are talking about "making a person responsible for themselves instead of having rules, laws, and regulations" I can see the women who are focused on their own rights to their own bodies using that kind of language in making their case for the "right" to have an abortion.

In a sense I would view a woman as a "government" or law, rule, and regulating authority over the human trying to achieve freedom one day from that "government" that does not allow him/her to vote, and denies it's actual humanity and value, and denies it any say in the "government" that most directly and most absolutely is claiming dicatorial power of his/her life, over his/her very existence.

I am saying that the woman does NOT have the moral authority or perogative to terminate human life, any more than Hitler, Stalin, or any of a hundred or thousands of other persons who have gone on some career or another terminating the lives of others because those "others" are somehow "inconvenient"

Giving one person that kind of "moral authority" over another is indeed going "over the line" on what I consider to be proper ground for our privileges.

In the history of human kind, we've done a lot of things I could consider to be improper or not according to sound moral reasoning. I could say the whole of human history is a universe of wrongs. So, aside from trying to point out the superior value system that nurtures life and propagates it throughout the cosmos, I sadly recognize that infanticide has been practiced in many times and many places for many reasons. In some cases it has been resorted to in the face of very serious stresses, limited space and resources. . . . an inability to actually care for the infant. We all have our ideas of what that amounts to, I suppose.

I sometimes see animals. . . cats and dogs. . . . eat their young. Surely they will eat the ones that die in their litter, sometimes they will eat live ones. I suspect some sense of smell is the trigger, but I believe overcrowding will trigger it as well.

I'm not in favor of empowering the government to round up women and jail them for having abortions. . . . or for not having them. . . . .

I do want the government to be limited. I do want the government to have laws against murder. I do know that infants at twenty weeks do feel pain, and I believe they have other senses we call "human" even before then. Any kind of logical line we can draw is easily questionable.

People who don't want kids, or who for any reason don't want to go through the birthing process, rank in my book as "none of my business", or "none of the government's business". But believing what I do about the value of human life, and life in general, it looks like an opportunity for those of us who share those values, to step and provide some kind of humane and compassionate alternative.

If you're looking to ditch a kid for any reason, drop him/her on my doorstep. We'd call it a blessing.;
 
It's not directly about male privilege, but it's certainly at play in various reactions by some of the men in this thread, particularly from some who, in almost every other sphere, seem to emphasize personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of one's actions.



Why is the boy being "guilty of creating that social dynamic" relevant?

The female has one, temporary, additional option that the male does not, and only because it is her body that the fetus will use. I see *nothing* unfair about the female getting an additional choice because of that additional burden. You might as well whine about only tall people being hired to play basketball in the NBA.

So you can't acknowledge the point being made. Thanks.
 
Once there is a child, they have the same legal options that women have.

What? That's not true.

Situation: 17 year old Girl gets pregnant by her 17 year old boy friend. They break up, he doesn't know she's pregnant. Next time he has contact he's being ordered to provide a DNA sample. It comes back matching the child he didn't know he had and he's ordered to pay child support.

Is that just an urban legend? I swear that happens.

Actually they don't. Due to safe haven laws a woman can just drop off a baby and will face no legal repercussions without any consent from the father at all. Also, a woman can prove paternity, and it can be court-ordered, and then get a judgement against the father for support even if he doesn't want the child, or to GF's point, even if he doesn't know the child exists. The legal options are almost all in the mother's court on this one.

And as far as the accusation of attempting to be selective about personal accountability, this is all about just that topic. Only it includes the caveat that those responsibilities should be shared equally, whereas in our legal environment they are not. Both the mother and the father should carry exactly the same responsibilities, and rights and obligations, that come with pregnancy, wanted or unwanted. But in our country, this is simply not the case.
 
So you can't acknowledge the point being made. Thanks.

Sorry. The point you are attempting to make is that you think it's unfair girls get to choose an abortion, and not become a mother, and guys don't get that choice. Waaaaah! It's not FAIR!

I should not let such stupidity go unacknowledged, but I was trying to be nice about it; instead I just said that I thought it was fair, without the direct acknowledgement.
 
Sorry. The point you are attempting to make is that you think it's unfair girls get to choose an abortion, and not become a mother, and guys don't get that choice. Waaaaah! It's not FAIR!

I should not let such stupidity go unacknowledged, but I was trying to be nice about it; instead I just said that I thought it was fair, without the direct acknowledgement.

You're still missing the point. It's not a waaaahh argument and acting like it is is pretty lame.
 
Sorry. The point you are attempting to make is that you think it's unfair girls get to choose an abortion, and not become a mother, and guys don't get that choice. Waaaaah! It's not FAIR!

I should not let such stupidity go unacknowledged, but I was trying to be nice about it; instead I just said that I thought it was fair, without the direct acknowledgement.

This just tells me you don't have many, if any, personal experiences in this realm, and/or are incapable of empathy. These are life-changing events, no other way to put it. The whole point of abortion law is that a woman should not be forced into a life-changing decision, but that it should be her choice, whether it is to keep the baby or not. But of course the man should be forced into the same life-changing event because after all he is just whining about his life. Only the mother's life matters. Right?
 
Actually they don't. Due to safe haven laws a woman can just drop off a baby and will face no legal repercussions without any consent from the father at all.

You mean, if the father doesn't know enough to object to the drop off, presumably. Guess what? If a father is in possession of a baby that the mother does not realize exists (from amnesia, coma, denial, etc.), they can use the same safe haven laws. They have the same rights.

Also, a woman can prove paternity, and it can be court-ordered, and then get a judgement against the father for support even if he doesn't want the child. The legal options are almost all in the mother's court on this one.

Also, a man can prove maternity, and it can be court-ordered, and then get a judgement against the mother for support even if she doesn't want the child anymore. The legal options are almost all in the father's court on this one. Again, equal rights.

And as far as the accusation of attempting to be selective about personal accountability, this is all about just that topic. Only it includes the caveat that those responsibilities should be shared equally, whereas in our legal environment they are not. Both the mother and the father should carry exactly the same responsibilities, and rights and obligations, that come with pregnancy, wanted or unwanted. But in our country, this is simply not the case.

True, but in the opposite direction you pretend they are, and socially as opposed to legally. Socially, the burden for care is on the woman. Legally, their rights are equal once there is a child.
 
This just tells me you don't have many, if any, personal experiences in this realm, and/or are incapable of empathy.

Actually, I did have that experience back when I was young. I don't have a lot of empathy for men in this regard, not because I'm incapable of it, but because it's not the men who need it.

These are life-changing events, no other way to put it. The whole point of abortion law is that a woman should not be forced into a life-changing decision, but that it should be her choice, whether it is to keep the baby or not. But of course the man should be forced into the same life-changing event because after all he is just whining about his life. Only the mother's life matters. Right?

It's the woman's body that carries the fetus. Any other circumstance would be imposing the will of the man over the woman.

However, the event is life-changing for the woman, whether she aborts or not. Either way, the result of the sex act has changed her life. I'm not surprised you think men should be able to get a free pass, but you're making no case for them to avoid having their life changed as well.
 
Nice to see your facade start to slip a little. Don't be afraid of who you truly are.

I never have been, to my knowledge. I'm curious what you think my facade was, and in what way it slipped. Care to elaborate?
 
Actually, I did have that experience back when I was young. I don't have a lot of empathy for men in this regard, not because I'm incapable of it, but because it's not the men who need it.



It's the woman's body that carries the fetus. Any other circumstance would be imposing the will of the man over the woman.

However, the event is life-changing for the woman, whether she aborts or not. Either way, the result of the sex act has changed her life. I'm not surprised you think men should be able to get a free pass, but you're making no case for them to avoid having their life changed as well.

I never asserted that so I will sidestep your attempt at a straw man.

Let's simplify, you are against forcing a choice on the woman, but in favor of forcing a choice on the man. I am in favor of not forcing a choice on either one.
 
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