Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (democratic socialist) wins NY primary

[One Brow]

tldr version - i think at the heart the difference between capitalism and socialism is an agency/choice issue.

It's interesting you phrase that agency/choice issue as upon whom money is spent. I see a different agency/choice issue; should I have the agency to pass the medical boards, the bar, produce a thesis, design a bridge, or anything other thing, I should be able to make a choice to do so facing no different obstacles than those who have a different skin color, gender, inherited wealth, etc. Enabling stronger social safety nets creates a more meritocratic society.

 

[One Brow]

I read about Nathan Bedford Forrest when I was in 3rd grade. A little series of biographies for kids in orange covered books, over a hundred in all. He was a hero somehow.

He was not a hero "somehow". He was a hero because he became wealthy owning slaves, because he fought to preserve slavery, because he murdered black soldiers that had already surrendered, because he terrorized black families after they were legally freed. The part he spoke out in favor of black advancement is curiously absent in his monuments.

Lately his name has been thrown around for being a racist.

It's so odd that someone who owned slaves, fought to preserve slavery, murdered black soldiers after they surrendered, and joined the KKK is thought of as racist. It must be historical revisionism; there can be no other explanation.

I bring that up because that's your excuse for not parting company with Bill Ayers, Trotsky, and Machiavelli..... Hegel, Nietzche, Marx and a thousand other proponents of "The Ends Justifies the Means".

Most of those people were dead before I was born, I have never met the one who was not. How can I part company of people I have never met?

When have I ever said "the ends justify the means"? If anything, I emphasize the means over the ends.

Religionists have the convenience of ascribing their notions to "God", but secular humanists stand naked, having no one to point to but themselves.

I agree there is no difference there.

And ya'll oughtta be as pissed as me at what Hillary and Obama have done to destroy human liberty. It takes determined blindness to claim Obama's admin was without scandal when he used US govt. taxpayer money to try to defeat his political opposition. that's a thousand times what Nixon did.

I bet you think you have a point. What's your evidence?

Rosenstein needs to resign, citing conflict of interests.

What's the conflict?

It is beyond any defense or argument to claim Hillary and the DNC and Obama did not break our laws and use their inside influence with partisan officials to do that.

It's up to you to provide evidence that they did.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

While I agree with what you are saying, I also think that the measures we have in relation to grades don't often translate to who is the best applicant. There are many skills and attributes that don't translate to grades, paper, etc. If the only difference between applicants is race, then yes I agree. Life is never that simple though, and that is true both directions. We need to allow those qualified to decide to do so free of fetters. There is so much bias in the world that it's hard to do so, and attempts to mitigate these issues may result in over correction. It's not a simple fix for these scenarios.

I'm not aware of anyone who is making the claim that the differences in acceptance rates based on grades and MCAT scores is attributable to anything other than race. Are you?

 

[One Brow]

I'm not aware of anyone who is making the claim that the differences in acceptance rates based on grades and MCAT scores is attributable to anything other than race. Are you?

It is illegal to make race the only reason you accept a lower-scored applicant over a higher-scored one. Therefore, no one who actually does diversity hiring/enrolling claims race is the only factor.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Progressive people want equity, not the imposing of equal outcomes. Google equity if you’re unfamiliar with the concept

Everyone wants as much equity as reasonably achievable. Pure equity isnt possible without pure equality, which we think would lower average standards and defeat the purpose.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

It's interesting you phrase that agency/choice issue as upon whom money is spent. I see a different agency/choice issue; should I have the agency to pass the medical boards, the bar, produce a thesis, design a bridge, or anything other thing, I should be able to make a choice to do so facing no different obstacles than those who have a different skin color, gender, inherited wealth, etc. Enabling stronger social safety nets creates a more meritocratic society.

Does it have to be one or the other?

I was also lazy, but will add this in now. It wasn't just upon whom money is spent, it is that the reward go to the person that earned the reward, and the decision to do whatever with that reward is up to that person.

I do agree that there should not be roadblocks or speed bumps in the way of any people in their efforts to get there. I do also think help can and should be given to people in difficult circumstances to help them get to where they want to be. I see much of the disagreement today as to what the definition of help is vs what is too much. I have seen in life that things that are merely given to someone that does not need to work for it, they don't appreciate it nor use that opportunity the way someone that poured their heart and soul into getting there would. A doctor that had it handed to them compared to one that scratched and clawed and fought imo would not be as good of a doctor, it wouldn't mean as much to them.

I don't think the agency topic is mutually exclusive.

 

[One Brow]

Does it have to be one or the other?

I was also lazy, but will add this in now. It wasn't just upon whom money is spent, it is that the reward go to the person that earned the reward, and the decision to do whatever with that reward is up to that person.

I do agree that there should not be roadblocks or speed bumps in the way of any people in their efforts to get there. I do also think help can and should be given to people in difficult circumstances to help them get to where they want to be. I see much of the disagreement today as to what the definition of help is vs what is too much. I have seen in life that things that are merely given to someone that does not need to work for it, they don't appreciate it nor use that opportunity the way someone that poured their heart and soul into getting there would. A doctor that had it handed to them compared to one that scratched and clawed and fought imo would not be as good of a doctor, it wouldn't mean as much to them.

I don't think the agency topic is mutually exclusive.

The existence on topic should not be construed as to imply the other does not exist.

We seem to largely agree on the benefits of the meritocracy, and most of those benefits can be (and are) maintained even when a society uses a strong social safety net to come closer to equity.

 

[Jonah]

. . .We seem to largely agree on the benefits of the meritocracy, and most of those benefits can be (and are) maintained even when a society uses a strong social safety net to come closer to equity.

Interesting article on a book (Twilight of the Elites) that argues that a true meritocracy is a myth.

"As America becomes more unequal, it’s ever harder to claim that it is a meritocratic country. It still looks like one to the people at the top, who continue to prosper. However, their view of the world is increasingly at odds with the view of people below, who like the idea of equal opportunity but don’t believe it is working.”

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/10/13/13259860/twilight-elites-trump-meritocracy

 

[One Brow]

Interesting article on a book (Twilight of the Elites) that argues that a true meritocracy is a myth.

"As America becomes more unequal, it’s ever harder to claim that it is a meritocratic country. It still looks like one to the people at the top, who continue to prosper. However, their view of the world is increasingly at odds with the view of people below, who like the idea of equal opportunity but don’t believe it is working.”

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/10/13/13259860/twilight-elites-trump-meritocracy

I would refer to a true meritocracy as an ideal, but the notion of the US as a meritocracy is a myth. Is that what you meant?

 

[Siro]

I would refer to a true meritocracy as an ideal, but the notion of the US as a meritocracy is a myth. Is that what you meant?

Surely the notion that the US is a meritocracy is not a myth. Unless all ideas are in practice myths, since no ideal can be fully realized.

 

[One Brow]

Surely the notion that the US is a meritocracy is not a myth. Unless all ideas are in practice myths, since no ideal can be fully realized.

In any society, there will be some meritocracy, some tyranny, some oligarchism, some caplitalism, some socialism, etc., expressed in different ways. So sure, the US is a meritocracy, tyranny, oligarchy, etc.

However, if you refer to the main drivers of power in the US (who has access to them, can acquire them, is recogized by other possessors of them, etc.), from my view merit if far down on the list, coming well after things like family wealth, connections, race, gender, etc. YMMV.

 

[Siro]

In any society, there will be some meritocracy, some tyranny, some oligarchism, some caplitalism, some socialism, etc., expressed in different ways. So sure, the US is a meritocracy, tyranny, oligarchy, etc.

However, if you refer to the main drivers of power in the US (who has access to them, can acquire them, is recogized by other possessors of them, etc.), from my view merit if far down on the list, coming well after things like family wealth, connections, race, gender, etc. YMMV.

Relative to other societies, the US is very much, at its core, a meritocracy. That's the reason millions of people migrate/attempt to migrate to the US each year. I know this from first hand experience, as I managed to build a far better life here than I would've otherwise been able to (most likely, I'm not clairvoyant). And I came without wealth, connections, race privilege, or anything else (except gender). Countless others have similar stories.

It is important to remember that the US is an incredibly successful nation, and that most of its citizens live relatively safe and comfortable lives. And that's not because of any elevated social status.