Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (democratic socialist) wins NY primary


candrew

Well-Known Member
As far as Shapiro's alleged fallacy, that was a fair response IMO to Cenk's own fallacy. Cenk attempted to link high growth with high taxation and inferred causation through correlation. This is a well abused tactic by pundits from both sides. Cenk said nothing of baby boom, post depression, or the ensuing stagflation that was caused by excessive government social program spending funded by debt and combined with policy fueled by a modern leftist's wet dreams.

The context in which I've always heard Cenk's argument is that high tax rates do not necessarily impede high growth. Not that they're linked in that high tax rates result in high growth. I'd think Shapiro knew better - but decided to play to the crowd and create a straw man argument.
 


Ron Mexico

Well-Known Member
Contributor
The context in which I've always heard Cenk's argument is that high tax rates do not necessarily impede high growth. Not that they're linked in that high tax rates result in high growth. I'd think Shapiro knew better - but decided to play to the crowd and create a straw man argument.
That's what I thought he was trying to say but he was struggling to make a point.
 

Ron Mexico

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I understood what you meant, just found it too much at a distance or ambiguous, which was a fair response given the two rehashing the time old debate over supply vs. demand fostering healthy markets and increased living standards. Those two did it in the dumbest, most basic ways possible. Neither advanced anything about equilibrium, collaborative capitalism, or the various reasons markets are unable to clear in an imperfect world. There was nothing on sticky wages, prices or costs. Nothing about deficit spending or the Keynesian cross (Cenk made an incorrect statement on tax and spend and Shapiro should have pounced with some Mankiw). Nothing about policy responding differently to different market environments. Nothing about total tax burden or benefit.

As far as Shapiro's alleged fallacy, that was a fair response IMO to Cenk's own fallacy. Cenk attempted to link high growth with high taxation and inferred causation through correlation. This is a well abused tactic by pundits from both sides. Cenk said nothing of baby boom, post depression, or the ensuing stagflation that was caused by excessive government social program spending funded by debt and combined with policy fueled by a modern leftist's wet dreams.
I was trying to avoid talking about the debated issues specifically because I knew the conversation would turn into discussing those issues.

I haven't listened to Shapiro and have heard he was smart. I don't really care about what Cenk was saying or his debating skills. But it was very obvious to me that Shapiro is smart and a quick thinker but just uses silly tactics to convince the crowd and confuse his opponent. Almost every argument he made was a logical fallacy. But he used those on purpose because they work against most people and they work on a crowd.

The actual discussion of economics sucked. I'm no expert in that but clearly neither of them are either. That rarely leads to a good debate. I'm guessing you know more about that than either of them.
 

idestroyedthetoilet

Well-Known Member
The context in which I've always heard Cenk's argument is that high tax rates do not necessarily impede high growth. Not that they're linked in that high tax rates result in high growth. I'd think Shapiro knew better - but decided to play to the crowd and create a straw man argument.

Thanks for clarifying, I suppose. Maybe I'll give some of his show a shot. I haven't been able to stand what I've seen thus far. It's too grating or pompous in my view.
 

candrew

Well-Known Member
Thanks for clarifying, I suppose. Maybe I'll give some of his show a shot. I haven't been able to stand what I've seen thus far. It's too grating or pompous in my view.

I like Cenk. Whether or not you agree with him I'm pretty confident he believes in what he says and his heart is in the right place. Some of the regulars on his TYT show are downright obnoxious so I'm not an avid follower.

I listened to Shapiro on The Joe Rogan show and I have to admit he says some things that make sense - I certainly prefer him to the other conservative pundits but that's not much to brag about.
 

dalamon

Well-Known Member
2018 Prediction Contest Winner
Yet people in medical school can get student loans to cover pretty much anything based on the likelihood they will end up a doctor. They have loans practically thrown at them. Not having money is not as big of a road block to becoming a doctor as you make it sound.

Don't you think I have a better perspective on this than you do?

Once you pass a certain point, you are financially guaranteed to be fine, other than the years it will take to pay off those loans, which seems high but is really easier to pay off than most other degrees.

This isn't what I'm talking about.

If you can get to medical school with decent grades, you are set. If you in particular are not, then you haven't tried.

Lmao.

Across the continent, schools are moving away from grade-specific evaluations of students, instead valuing extra-curriculars heavily alongside good degree marks and standardized testing marks.

Guess who doesn't have the money to write the MCAT multiple times, take MCAT-prep courses (which cost in the multiple thousands), take unpaid internships in other cities/countries, or pursue large community/volunteering commitments due to financial insecurity?

Poor people. If economics weren't a constraint for successful medical school applicants, then why is med filled with rich people? If it's not them descending from wealth, what's the reason? Because rich people are smarter? If that's your argument, I invite you to present evidence indicating that.
 

Siro

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
Don't you think I have a better perspective on this than you do?



This isn't what I'm talking about.



Lmao.

Across the continent, schools are moving away from grade-specific evaluations of students, instead valuing extra-curriculars heavily alongside good degree marks and standardized testing marks.

Guess who doesn't have the money to write the MCAT multiple times, take MCAT-prep courses (which cost in the multiple thousands), take unpaid internships in other cities/countries, or pursue large community/volunteering commitments due to financial insecurity?

Poor people. If economics weren't a constraint for successful medical school applicants, then why is med filled with rich people? If it's not them descending from wealth, what's the reason? Because rich people are smarter? If that's your argument, I invite you to present evidence indicating that.

Completely off topic, but I'm not so sure of the wisdom of getting away from testing. I've heard a lot of people over the past decade poopooing testing as an evaluation tool. I understand the objections, but I think consequential testing is essential to the process of retaining information, since delayed recollection is a tried and true method for memory retention. And it is understood from a neurological perspective. Maybe a change of perspective on testing is needed, but I don't think such a powerful tool should be marginalized.
 

RandyForRubio

Well-Known Member
Oh...now experience and perspective matter for Dala?

I remember when he told me he understood farming like I do because his grandparents had a 10 acre farm or some **** decades ago.

Lol.

Have you decided that GMO’s are ok yet btw? Or are you still clinging to the idea they’re mad for you?
 

Gameface

Be Brave Enough To Be the Light!
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
Oh...now experience and perspective matter for Dala?

I remember when he told me he understood farming like I do because his grandparents had a 10 acre farm or some **** decades ago.

Lol.

Have you decided that GMO’s are ok yet btw? Or are you still clinging to the idea they’re mad for you?
GMOs are gaga over Dala, completely mad for him. lol

I know, I know
 

Gameface

Be Brave Enough To Be the Light!
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
Oh...now experience and perspective matter for Dala?

I remember when he told me he understood farming like I do because his grandparents had a 10 acre farm or some **** decades ago.

Lol.

Have you decided that GMO’s are ok yet btw? Or are you still clinging to the idea they’re mad for you?
And what, is the next thing you're gonna tell me is I should vaccinate my kids? Haha, better luck next time jack, I'd rather my kids die from measles than have autism. You'll probably be able to fool one of those idiots who thinks the world is round of your nonsense, not me! I've been eating non-GMO organic vegan soy beans buddy. You'd have to catch me pretty early in the morning if you want to have a chance of pulling any of this BS over on me.
 

RandyForRubio

Well-Known Member
And what, is the next thing you're gonna tell me is I should vaccinate my kids? Haha, better luck next time jack, I'd rather my kids die from measles than have autism. You'll probably be able to fool one of those idiots who thinks the world is round of your nonsense, not me! I've been eating non-GMO organic vegan soy beans buddy. You'd have to catch me pretty early in the morning if you want to have a chance of pulling any of this BS over on me.

Funny story.

My sister-in-law is dating a guy, and his parents are flat-earthers. Also like Alex Jones. Should’ve figured right away, the Dad is a chiropractor so you know he’s a lunatic. Wealthy, but loony.
 

Jazz Spazz

Inconceivable
Staff member
Don't you think I have a better perspective on this than you do?



This isn't what I'm talking about.



Lmao.

Across the continent, schools are moving away from grade-specific evaluations of students, instead valuing extra-curriculars heavily alongside good degree marks and standardized testing marks.

Guess who doesn't have the money to write the MCAT multiple times, take MCAT-prep courses (which cost in the multiple thousands), take unpaid internships in other cities/countries, or pursue large community/volunteering commitments due to financial insecurity?

Poor people. If economics weren't a constraint for successful medical school applicants, then why is med filled with rich people? If it's not them descending from wealth, what's the reason? Because rich people are smarter? If that's your argument, I invite you to present evidence indicating that.

I admit the "haven't tried" comment was out of line, in hindsight.

I wrote a book of a response but cut it down to this.
 

LogGrad98

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Completely off topic, but I'm not so sure of the wisdom of getting away from testing. I've heard a lot of people over the past decade poopooing testing as an evaluation tool. I understand the objections, but I think consequential testing is essential to the process of retaining information, since delayed recollection is a tried and true method for memory retention. And it is understood from a neurological perspective. Maybe a change of perspective on testing is needed, but I don't think such a powerful tool should be marginalized.
Imo there needs to be a balance. Testing most definitely has its place. But it is also at its core fundamentally flawed, requiring constant work and retooling to keep standardized tests relevant and meaningful in broad terms, and has been shown to be racially and socio-economically biased in many instances. This was a huge problem with intelligence testing (as much as there can be a problem with something entirely made up like IQ) until just the last decade maybe, where IQ tests were biased toward the a "norm" that really represented white affluent test-takers over people of color and lower economic and minority status. This was a topic of lots of conversation when I originally joined Mensa. There are more now that are better at addressing this, but it has been a long time coming, and will take a lot more work to even the playing field. Same goes for a lot of testing in academia, especially standardized testing and placement testing. I think we are making strides, but they are slow going. However, the most basic flaw of all testing is that it is biased by whomever is creating the test. As stated in the atlantic article below

To grasp how culturally contingent our current conception of intelligence is, just imagine how well you might do on an IQ test devised by Amazonian hunter-gatherers or medieval European peasants.

These biases exist in every test you have ever taken or ever will take, on some level and obviously depending on the subject matter, etc. (less bias in a math operations test, e.g. 2+2=X, than in a story problem test where social settings are used to test grasp of concepts, i.e. the more straight-forward the information being tested, generally the less bias inherent in the test). It is devilishly hard to eradicate bias, if it is even possible or if the test-makers even care to make the attempt.

https://www.fairtest.org/racial-bias-built-tests
https://www.theatlantic.com/nationa...ng-the-connection-between-race-and-iq/275876/

However largely I agree we cannot discount testing entirely and it should not be marginalized. It has to be part of a balanced measure of potential/performance and simply to assess knowledge. I think the push to completely eliminate standardized tests reeks too much of the "participation trophy" social movement that has evolved over the last couple of decades. Make things touchy-feely rather than deal with the harsh realities that at some point in our lives the vast majority of us will be expected to actually *gasp* produce something tangible. I know in my career I am judged far more on whether I met my hard financial targets year over year than if I tried hard or made a lot of friends or was nice to all my employees and, I don't know, participated in 80% of the pot-lucks for the year. That last part matters in how I get the job done, but it is not the ultimate measure of actually, you know, getting the job done.
 

dalamon

Well-Known Member
2018 Prediction Contest Winner
Oh...now experience and perspective matter for Dala?

I remember when he told me he understood farming like I do because his grandparents had a 10 acre farm or some **** decades ago.

Lol.

Have you decided that GMO’s are ok yet btw? Or are you still clinging to the idea they’re mad for you?

-I never said something genetically modified posing health risks, I spoke to the impacts of using RoundUp (which you then retorted that you were most in danger of, doing the actual farming).

-History will be on my side on that one; additionally, companies like Monsanto are unethical and capitalism caricatures that hurt farmers at the end of the day.


-confront the meat of my post, instead of this dumb straw man and distracting from the topic at hand.
 

dalamon

Well-Known Member
2018 Prediction Contest Winner
Completely off topic, but I'm not so sure of the wisdom of getting away from testing. I've heard a lot of people over the past decade poopooing testing as an evaluation tool. I understand the objections, but I think consequential testing is essential to the process of retaining information, since delayed recollection is a tried and true method for memory retention. And it is understood from a neurological perspective. Maybe a change of perspective on testing is needed, but I don't think such a powerful tool should be marginalized.

I think it plays a role-- but I think there's enough evidence to show that a fixation on it is ultimately not good for learners.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
-I never said something genetically modified posing health risks, I spoke to the impacts of using RoundUp (which you then retorted that you were most in danger of, doing the actual farming).

-History will be on my side on that one; additionally, companies like Monsanto are unethical and capitalism caricatures that hurt farmers at the end of the day.


-confront the meat of my post, instead of this dumb straw man and distracting from the topic at hand.
Roundup just lost a huge law suit against a guy who got cancer from spraying weeds.
 

dalamon

Well-Known Member
2018 Prediction Contest Winner
Roundup just lost a huge law suit against a guy who got cancer from spraying weeds.

as I said, eventually the opinion on Monsanto and roundup will tilt in my direction.

Shout out to that ****ing guy, looting them for 290 million. I hope more pillage and bankrupt that corp.
 

Saint Cy of JFC

Well-Known Member
as I said, eventually the opinion on Monsanto and roundup will tilt in my direction.

Shout out to that ****ing guy, looting them for 290 million. I hope more pillage and bankrupt that corp.
The dude only gets like 20 million after lawyer fees and taxes. They will probably try to appeal it until he dies as well.
 

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