All-Time NBA Draft Round 1: spycam1 vs. Jeffrey32

[Elizah Huge]

Team spycam1:

PG - Chauncey Billups / Rajon Rondo
SG - Dwyane Wade / Dale Ellis / Andre Iguodala
SF - Larry Bird / Glen Rice
PF - Dennis Rodman / Blake Griffin
C - Hakeem Olajuwon / Mark Eaton / Joakim Noah

Team Jeffrey32:

PG - Magic Johnson / Lenny Wilkens
SG - Kobe Bryant / Sidney Moncrief / Drazen Petrovic
SF - Dan Majerle / Chris Mullin
PF - Charles Barkley / Pau Gasol / Jerry Lucas
C - Alonzo Mourning / Marc Gasol



spycam1's Case:

Hakeem Olajuwon Is Unstoppable

Hakeem is the only player in the history of the game to win MVP, Finals MVP, and DPOY in the same year.

He's the best two-way center the game has ever seen. He's the all time leader in blocks and a 2x DPOY, but also routinely schooled other all time great centers on the other side of the court like Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing...

As good of a defender as Mourning is, he won't be able to stop what the all time great centers could not.

Olajuwon is an unstoppable force on both ends.

Dwayne Wade and Larry Bird

This is the best wing duo the history of this competition has ever seen. Both won Finals MVPs, were 3X all Defensive 2nd team members, and could run the offense all on their own.

Wade's best statistical season:

30.2 points - 7.5 assists - 5.0 rebounds - 2.2 steals - 1.3 blocks

Larry Bird's:

(his is a little harder to choose)

28.7 points - 10.5 rebounds - 6.6 assists - 1.6 steals - 1.2 blocks

And the chemistry between them works well. Wade is primarily a driver, balanced out by some of the best shooting you've ever seen in Bird. Bird's ability to shoot and post up give him tons of flexibility when Wade handles the ball, and Wade proved he could play off the ball when he teamed up with LeBron.

We all know how clutch Bird was, but Wade's Finals series was one of the best ever (he has the highest PER of any player in a Finals series ever).

Absolutely unstoppable combo on the wings.

Big 3... or Big 4?

Dennis Rodman is the most underrated player in the game. At least, that's what this article argues with undeniable evidence:

https://skepticalsports.com/the-case-for-dennis-rodman-guide/

Dennis Rodman has dominated Rebounding Percentage more than anyone has dominated any major stat.

Before Rodman, we should have expected a rebounder of that quality to appear about once every 400 years.

Contrary to popular opinion, Rodman was a much better rebounder than Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell, and it’s not close

Rebounding percentage correlates more strongly with winning than points per game.

Individual rebounding percentage has a more causative effect on team rebounding percentage than individual PPG does on team PPG.

Rodman has the highest Margin of Victory differential of any player since 1986 with a remotely similar sample size

Despite claims that he was exclusively a defensive player, Rodman’s teams played significantly better on offense with him in the lineup, even after accounting for his offense rebounding

[Rodman's] Win% differential is #1 of the 470 players who qualified for the study—by a wide margin

Everyone uses statistics, yet no one listens to statisticians—in part because statisticians build overreaching models, then believe and defend them

Not to mention he's a 2X DPOY, 7 time All-Defensive 1st team, and routinely guarded EVERY POSITION--whether it was Shaq, Jordan, or Magic.

The Perfect PG

Because of how much Wade and Bird handle the ball, I need a PG who can play off the ball when needed, so Billups is perfect. He's the only PG who gives you top notch defense while also shooting 40% from 3. He can guard the 1 and 2. He brings the great leadership. He simply made teams better. His numbers aren't as gaudy as guys like Nash or Kidd, but make no mistake, he was one of the best at running a team and controlling the pace.

Defense

Every member of my starting lineup has made All-Defensive teams. You can't say that about Jeffrey's team.

Not to mention I have the best defender ever in Rodman, and the all time blocks leader in Hakeem, along with the all time leader in BPA for a season in Eaton.

Rodman will spend time guarding Magic, while Bird guards Barkley. This is something Rodman did all the time, and Bird was very used to guarding 4s as well (and Barkley is actually smaller than Bird, so it's not hard to imagine it working at all). That would the send Billups to guard Mullin (Billups is actually heavier than Mullin and and all team defender). Switching up the defensive match ups will make things difficult, and my team is very capable at switches like this, mainly because Rodman can guard anyone and Bird can guard 4s.

Chemistry

Both teams have lots of stud players, but I believe mine would function as a unit better; it has more clearly defined roles. Billups, Wade, and Bird can all play together, but Kobe and Magic are not an ideal fit. Both are so ball dominant. Not to mention my team has better spacing with Billups and Bird starting, with Ellis and Rice providing shooting off the bench.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Jeffrey32's Case:

THE JEFFREY32 TEAM

Starting Line-up
PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Kobe Bryant
SF: Dan Majerle
PF: Charles Barkley
C: Alonzo Mourning

Bench
PG: Lenny Wilkens
SG: Sidney Moncrief
Drazen Petrovic
SF: Chris Mullin
PF: Pau Gasol
Jerry Lucas
C: Marc Gasol

Overall Theory: My Round 1 match-up is another legendary battle between Magic and Bird. And like, most Magic v. Bird battles, beginning with 1979 NCAA Finals to the 1987 NBA Finals, the “W” should go to Magic.

Defensive Strategy: Spycam’s team is based on Hakeem and Bird carrying the offense, and I have my two of my best defensive players guarding those two. While Zo and Thunder Dan can’t stop them, they will do their best to make them work, force the ball out of their hands, and make Wade, Rodman, and Billups score. Wade is really the only scoring threat of the three and he will have to deal with Kobe on offense and defense. I don’t think this will be a close game, so Mr. Big Shot’s theatrics won’t be helpful, and Billups is a bigger, slower PG, so Magic won’t have much of a problem chasing him around. So, can Rodman go for 30???

Offensive Strategy: My team is led by the ultimate team player, who truly makes those around him better, but can also be head-and-shoulders the best player on the floor, whenever he wants: Magic Johnson. As he did with Worthy, Kareem, Scott, etc., he will be able to keep everyone happy and involved on offense. Barkley will both run the floor for dunks and man the post, backing Rodman or whomever down. Mourning will be there for tip-ins, lops, and the occasional 8-10 footer to keep Olajuwon honest. If Spycam used HO on Barkley, Zo can use his height advantage over Rodman. Majerle will be there for 3s from anywhere on the court when Barkley, Magic, and Kobe need to kick-out, and then he can also get a couple of his signature thunderous dunks on fast breaks... considering there is no one better at leading the fast break than Magic. And Kobe can pretty much do whatever he wants, since there won’t be a double team coming as no one can be left open. These players are perfectly built for the half-court or “Showtime.”

Bench Strategy: Mullin is my sixth man and is the third OG Dream Teamer on my roster. Mullin’s offense will be able to both anchor the bench, allowing him to easily go for 20, and give room in the paint for the Gasol Brothers. The Gasols can use their lifetime of playing together and be true twin towers. Marc is a DPOY in his own right, but brings a completely different defensive-style then zone and a more polished, well-rounded offense. He is the best center in today’s game. Plus, Pau is the most versatile 7-footer in history, who can play in the post and from 20-feet-plus out. He has similar yet different diverse tools as Barkley, but in a completely different body. In his day, Lenny Wilkens was the second-best PG behind Oscar. He is the perfect back-up PG for this team, as he doesn’t do anything flashy, has an MIT-like basketball IQ, and is an assist/playmaking machine. He is also one of the greatest head coaches ever, so Lenny is my player-coach. Considering he will only have to spell Magic for 10 or so minutes, it will give Lenny lots of time to patrol the sidelines and make adjustments when needed. Backing up Kobe, I have a two-headed monster. If I need lockdown defense, I can bring in Moncrief (2-time DPOY). And, if I need scoring/shooting, I can bring in Petrovic, who according to Reggie Miller is the best shooter ever and would probably be a Top 5 SG of all-time if his life didn’t end so early. Last, but certainly not least, I can bring in Jerry Lucas, who is a Rodman-level rebounder, but with a sweet jump shot. Lucas wasn't particularly tall or bruising, nor was he a great leaper, but his name can be found at the top of any list of great rebounding forwards in NBA history. The 6-8 Lucas hauled down 12,942 rebounds for an average of 15.6 per game, the fourth-best career mark in NBA history (Rodman 13.1). In the modern era, Lucas would be a perfect Stretch 4, as he was also almost always among the league leaders in field goal percentage (50% career), even though he regularly shot from 20 feet or more. Overall, in comparing my bench to Spycam’s, all my players are better or “equal” to his.

MY TEAM IN MORE DEPTH

MAGIC: While both Magic and Bird won 3 MVP awards each, Magic won 5 NBA Titles (compared to Bird’s 3) and bested Bird head-to-head two-out-of-three times in the Finals. Magic made 9 finals appearances, which ties him for 4th all time, and his career was cut short by probably by 5 seasons. I would compare Magic to Chauncey and Rondo, but I don’t think they should even be mentioned in the same breath as Magic. While Jazzfanz obviously has an allegiance to Stockton (including myself), it is hard to argue against Magic as the greatest PG of all-time. On top of that, at 6’9” he is easily the rarest breed of player who could play five positions and is definitely on Basketball’s Mt. Rushmore, as Top-4 ever. The only knock most critics have about Magic was his defense, but it was something he could turn on, as he guarded 5 positions, PGs that were faster and 9” shorter, and led the league in steals for 2 seasons.
Magic v. Billups: Magic

KOBE: Kobe is certainly not well-liked by Jazzfanz, but, after Jordan, he is the 2nd greatest 2-guard of all time and will rank in the Top 10 ever by most critics. Like Magic, Kobe brings 5 rings to the game (7 appearances). Kobe also has 11 First Teams, 17 All Stars, and an MVP. Most importantly Kobe knows when to shine, whether that is his 2 NBA Finals MVP and 4 All Star MVPs. When he is playing against the best, he wants to prove he is the best. With Magic as the ultimate team player, who played with HOFs Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes, Magic would have no problem sharing the ball with Kobe and having Kobe involved in the offense (not be the entire offense). If Magic played with a 2-guard like Kobe instead of Scott and Cooper, he would have probably gone 9-0 in those Finals. My opponent has Dwyane Wade who is the 2nd best 2-guard of his generation (behind Kobe), but is easily outclassed by Kobe overall. Wade has never been an MVP and only has 2 First Teams. Kobe who is an elite lockdown defender, when he wants to be, has 9 First Defensive Teams compared to Wade’s goose-egg. When playing head-to-head, Wade and Kobe are almost dead-even numbers-wise, but with the other HOFs (Magic, Barkley, Mullin, Zo) able to spread out the scoring load, Kobe can focus on being a lockdown defender against Wade when he needs to be and the “Black Mamba” when he needs to be.
Kobe v. Wade: Kobe

MAJERLE: Many of you will question my decision to start Thunder Dan over HOF Mullin, but Majerle is the far superior defensive player (2x All Defensive 2nd Team). Mullin, who is Bird-lite would be immediately dismissed next to Bird, but this way Mullin hugely beefs up scoring on my bench, and, while Majerle won’t stop Bird, he will hustle like crazy and make Bird work for every shot. Majerle, a 3x All Star and member of Dream Team II (with Zo), is also no slouch on the offensive end. A superior athlete known for his impressive jumping ability and "thunderous" slam dunks, DM became one of the most recognized 3-point shooters in the 90’s. His ability to hit a three from anywhere on the court became not only his trademark, but made teams adjust their defenses to cover him (so Bird can’t slack off on him). Majerle currently ranks 28th all time in three pointers made with 1,360. He led the league in three pointers made and attempted in the 92-93 and 93-94 seasons and then finished 2nd in makes and 3rd in attempts in the 94-95 season with his personal best 199 made and 548 attempts. He would hit 558 three pointers, the most in the NBA during that stretch. Continuing his success Majerle would lead the league in playoff 3’s made and attempted in the 92-93 season as well. Majerle’s three-point potential at any moment and from anywhere will spread the floor for his teammates allowing Barkley to own the paint, Magic to drive and dish, and Kobe to go one-on-one. Majerle also played his best years with Barkley in PHX (going to the Finals) and some of his last years with Zo in Miami, so he knows how to compliment my frontcourt stars extremely well, which is another reason to put him in the starting unit.
Majerle v. Bird: Bird

BARKLEY: "Sir Charles"/ "The Round Mound of Rebound" is in the Top 3 of greatest PFs of all time, and if you’re in Philly or Phoenix, he would probably be #1. Short for a power forward, Barkley used his strength and aggressiveness to become one of the NBA's most dominant rebounders. He was a versatile player who had the ability to score, create plays, and defend. In 2000, he retired as the fourth player in NBA history to achieve 20,000 points, 10,000 rebounds and 4,000 assists. The trade to Phoenix in the 1992–93 season went well for both Barkley and the Suns. He averaged 25.6 points on .520 shooting, 12.2 rebounds and a career high 5.1 assists per game, leading the Suns to an NBA best 62–20 record. For his efforts, Barkley won the league's Most Valuable Player Award and was selected to play in his seventh straight All-Star Game. He became the third player ever to win league MVP honors in the season immediately after being traded, established multiple career highs and led Phoenix to their first NBA Finals appearance since 1976. He averaged 26.6 points and 13.6 rebounds per game during the whole postseason, including 27.3 points, 13.0 rebounds and 5.5 assists per game throughout the championship series. During his NBA career, Barkley was a constant mismatch because he possessed a set of very uncommon skills and could play in a variety of positions. He would use all facets of his game in a single play; as a scorer, he had the ability to score from the perimeter and the post, using an array of spin moves and fadeaways, or finishing a fast break with a powerful dunk. He was one of the most efficient scorers of all-time, scoring at 54.13% total field goal percentage for his season career and 51.34% total field goal shooting for his playoff career (including a career-high season average of 60% during the 1989–90 NBA season). Barkley is the shortest player in NBA history to lead the league in rebounding when he averaged a career high 14.6 rebounds per game during the 1986–87 season helping cement his legacy as one of the greatest rebounders in NBA history, averaging 11.7 rebounds per game in the regular season for his career and 12.9 rebounds per game in his playoff career and totaling 12,546 rebounds for his season career. Barkley topped the NBA in offensive rebounding for three straight years. Barkley also possessed considerable defensive talents led by an aggressive demeanor, foot speed and his capacity to read the floor to anticipate for steals, a reason why he established his career as the second All-Time leader in steals for the power forward position and leader of the highest all-time steal per game average for the power forward position. Despite being undersized for both the small forward and power forward positions, he also finished among the all-time leaders in blocked shots. While Rodman is one of the greatest defenders and rebounders of all-time, Barkley could do what Rodman could do on the defensive-end if he had to and still score 20 points. Barkley also could play the head games just as good as Rodman, which would negate Rodman’s greatest strength.
Barkley v. Rodman: Barkley

MOURNING: Zo most definitely is one of the great centers, probably Top 20. I immediately give this match-up on a mano-y-mano level to Hakeem, though, who is a Top 5 center of all-time. But while Mourning’s offense does not compare to the “Dream Shake,” his defense is at an elite level and he would have the foot speed, strength, and shot-blocking to make Hakeem work for every basket. He didn't score quite as much as the other 5s of his era, but he played for Riley’s defense-first Heat teams and still averaged 20+,10+, and almost 4 blocks. In his second run with Miami, when he won the NBA title and backed-up Shaq, Zo played half the minutes Shaq played and got double the blocks. Mourning's tenacious defense, steady offense, and all around hustle helped the Heat gain and maintain the second-best record in the NBA's Eastern conference during the 2004–05 season. Mourning finished the regular season ranking third in blocked shots at 2.66 per game, despite only playing 20 minutes per contest. Zo numbers compare well to all the 90s-00s centers except for the scoring, which is a result of the system he played in. He has good shooting percentages, but he really wouldn’t explode for 35-45 points very often. He wasn't dominating offensively, but defensively he was a game changer and could definitely be a game changer in this game, considering all he has to do is guard the paint and force Hakeem to work hard and pass more than he wants to. With Magic, Kobe, and Barkley, Zo doesn’t need to focus on offense beyond offensive rebounds, screens, and tip-ins, so he can use all his energy to slow Hakeem and block/alter shots, at which he is one of the best ever.
Mourning v. Olajuwon: Olajuwon

Wilkens v. Rondo = Wilkens; 50 Greatest of All-Time and 3-time HOF v. guy who quits on his team in playoffs

Drazen v. Ellis = Coin-flip; but only because of Drazen’s smaller sample size; Ellis was a great shooter, but Drazen was a shooter and scorer.

Moncrief v. Iguodala = Moncrief by a hair; Both elite defenders but Moncrief is 2-time DPOY and 5x All Star

Mullin v. Rice = Mullin by a yard; Almost identical career averages (both 18 and 4), but Mullin is HOFer, Dream Team 1 member, and has more All Star and First Team bids.

P. Gasol + Lucas v. Griffin = Gasol + Lucas for now; Griffin is flashier and may prove to be the better player in the long-run, but at this stage of his career, the edge goes to Gasol, who has done it longer, has titles, a lifetime of big-game international experience, and has the advantage on this roster of playing with both Kobe and Marc. Having the ability to bring Lucas in would be the icing on the cake.

M. Gasol v. Eaton + Noah: M. Gasol; Both Eaton and Noah are one-dimensional defensive players, both can be slacked-off on offense. Gasol is a DPOY like them, but also a real offensive threat. Gasol is considered the best center in the game right now and neither Noah or Eaton would ever be called the best of their generation.

 

[spycam1]

 

[Jeffrey32]

WC - please fix SF order at top


Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[Elizah Huge]

Here is my quick analysis of the starters at first sight:

Magic >>> Billups
Kobe > Wade
Majerle <<< Bird
Barkley > Rodman
Mourning <<< Olajuwon

Damn this is a close one, the Clippers vs. Spurs of the first round.

 

[Siro]

I think I like spycam's team better. Bird and Billups will provide a lot of spacing for Hakeem to do his thing, while Wade is a great all around offensive player. Plus Rodman is one hell of a defender and the game's best ever rebounder. Jeffrey has great pieces, but I feel his offense would be a bit chokey.

 

[spycam1]

Here is my quick analysis of the starters at first sight:

Magic >>> Billups
Kobe > Wade
Majerle <<< Bird
Barkley > Rodman
Mourning <<< Olajuwon

Damn this is a close one, the Clippers vs. Spurs of the first round.

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at things, but if you're going to look at it that way, how can you not compare Bird (instead of Billups) and Magic? They cancel each other out.

Wade cancels out Kobe as well as anyone possibly could. Wade averaged 30 points and 8 assists. That's unreal. His PER in the 06 Finals is the highest ever recorded. Wade's performance in the Finals is better than any Finals performance Kobe has had.

But then who's left to cancel out Hakeem? Barkley is not on that level. He's never even been a 2nd team all defender. Wade and Kobe are much more comparable than Barkley and Hakeem.

Or look at this way: My best player is better than his best player. My second best player is better than his second best. My third best is better than his third best.

 

[Elizah Huge]

That's an overly simplistic way of looking at things, but if you're going to look at it that way, how can you not compare Bird (instead of Billups) and Magic? They cancel each other out.

Wade cancels out Kobe as well as anyone possibly could. Wade averaged 30 points and 8 assists. That's unreal. His PER in the 06 Finals is the highest ever recorded. Wade's performance in the Finals is better than any Finals performance Kobe has had.

But then who's left to cancel out Hakeem? Barkley is not on that level. He's never even been a 2nd team all defender. Wade and Kobe are much more comparable than Barkley and Hakeem.

Or look at this way: My best player is better than his best player. My second best player is better than his second best. My third best is better than his third best.

The starters alone is not going to earn my vote, it was just a quick analysis of the starters. You can look at it that way too:

Magic = Bird

Kobe > Wade

Billups + Rodman + Olajuwon >>> Majerle + Barkley + Mourning

 

[Stifle Tower]

A team with both Gasols off the bench...that's deep. My Laker hatred is great, but there's no denying Magic and Kobe are two of the best ever. On the other hand, it's very difficult to vote against Hakeem. He was amazing. Tough call.

 

[spycam1]

A team with both Gasols off the bench...that's deep. My Laker hatred is great, but there's no denying Magic and Kobe are two of the best ever. On the other hand, it's very difficult to vote against Hakeem. He was amazing. Tough call.

It would be my first choice to watch (if we really could) of the 1st round matches.

 

[Elizah Huge]

It would be my first choice to watch (if we really could) of the 1st round matches.

I'd rather watch the Stockton - Maravich - Erving big 3.

 

[spycam1]

My team clearly has better shooting and defense.

 

[Elizah Huge]

My team clearly has better shooting and defense.

While I tend to agree, this is still a hard matchup.

 

[spycam1]

While I tend to agree, this is still a hard matchup.

I think these are 2 of the top 3 teams.

 

[spycam1]

Lol @ Bird vs Dan

 

[RandyForRubio]

I'm not so sure Prime Kobe is better than Prime Wade.

 

[spycam1]

For those who didn't read, Rodman will spend a decent amount of time guarding Magic, sending Bird to guard Barkley.

Rodman routinely guarded the opposing team's best player, regardless of position. And Bird guarded 4s all the time (and made 3 all defensive teams), plus he averaged 10+ rebounds for 6 straight seasons, and is bigger than Barkley. The ability of my team to switch up defensive assignments is fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpbHgEVdvX0

 

[spycam1]

I'm not so sure Prime Kobe is better than Prime Wade.

Wade is definitely the better passer (averaged nearly 8 APG in 09', while simultaneously averaging 30 PPG).

Kobe has also never had a Finals series on par with what Wade did in the '06 Finals.

 

[Jeffrey32]

Here is my quick analysis of the starters at first sight:

Magic >>> Billups
Kobe > Wade
Majerle <<< Bird
Barkley > Rodman
Mourning <<< Olajuwon

Damn this is a close one, the Clippers vs. Spurs of the first round.

Barkley only ">" over Rodman. Crazy! Barkley is two-way player and Rodman is one-way. Barkley was face of 2 franchises. Rodman was 3rd banana.

 

[spycam1]

Who could do a better job guarding Magic than Rodman?