Anti Trans Laws

[One Brow]

If some moron parent thinks their 5 year old boy is really a girl trapped in a boy’s body and finds a care provider who will perform surgery or prescribe a course of medications that permanently alter that child,

What a great example of fear warping visions. Genital surgeries on young children have traditionally been performed to enforce a specific gender identity assigned at birth, not alter it; that is, it's been the people like you alter children's genitals so they better match what people like you think they should resemble. Where are these fever dreams of 5-year-olds getting gender surgery coming from?

then a decade or so later the child commits suicide the care providers should all be liable.

You just minimized and dismissed these children's pain while trying to use their suicide to buff your argument. Do you understand how callous that makes you seem?

Gender-dysphoric children who receive care no more intrusive than counseling usually end up growing to be homosexual adults

That's why no medical society recommends making permanent changes to children. You're arguing against a fantasy of your own making.

 

[One Brow]

Just a quick research shows that is only a temporary thing, that starts around 10-11 or so and is used for a couple years until needing to go a different route. They do have some long term effects but it doesnt seem to bad short term. They will definitely effect growth, fertility later, other stuff.

Different drugs will have different effects.

But those seem more reasonable assuming proper steps were taken with medical professionals. But I can still see some debate to it especially with kids that age.

This is why it's important that nothing truly irreversible happens. Kids need time to grow and discover who they are.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Enforcing this will be nearly impossible. No way the courts uphold this crap. Especially the part about moving to another state. How do they determine that? Such garbage.

That's probably true but much like the anti-CRT and abortion laws Republicans have been passing recently it will result in:

1) Doctors being intimidated from trying to help trans children just as anti-CRT laws were designed to intimidate teachers from teaching history and health care professionals from providing women's care.
2) Hurting the most vulnerable. Sure, a rich and well connected politician's family will find a way to get the treatment they want/need. But a poor family with a trans child will be hurt. They don't have the money to fight this in court.

So much of what passes for legislation these days is merely message bills designed to serve as red meat to the dumbest and most intolerant demographic in their political base.

There is no reason for government to interfere this much in the lives of the LGBT community.

 

[Deleted member 365]

This is tough for minors. Hard decisions all the way around with possible lifelong ramifications. My daughter, who came out as bi in high school, is involved in this community with many friends. She had a friend who wanted gender affirming surgery when she was 14. Now at 22 she is very happy it didn't happen and feels that she is better as a lesbian than as a man. There is a reason minors cannot sign contracts and such, they tend to make decisions based on hormones and very limited knowledge that as an adult they might not make. I can get behind restrictions like this, but sweeping criminalization of these kinds of decisions is just ridiculous.

Criminalizing this with potential for "life in prison" sentences is just plain ridiculous but it serves as raw red meat for primary voters and ambitious candidates hoping to "out extreme" everyone else. There's no incentive to be moderate or rational in our political system right now. The more extreme you are, the more clicks, Fox News invites, and donations you receive.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Similar laws have been/shortly will be passed in most ALEC controlled states, Texas, Florida, etc. Republicans take these ALEC written laws and pass them knowing that it really excites their base who just can’t get over gay marriage.

The protection of kids isn't just red meat for the base. It has broad support across all demographics. The so-called 'Don't Say Gay' bill in Florida, when the actual text of the provision is read to someone before asking if they support that provision, it has overwhelming support.

Here is the controversial provision: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

Opinion | ‘Don’t Say Gay’ Is Popular? You Don’t Say

One poll shows backing from suburbs, parents and . . . Democrats.

www.wsj.com

This law is an anti-pedophile law. It makes it harder for pedophiles who have jobs teaching 5-8 year old kids to groom them.

Dehumanizing the LGBT community with such overbearing laws isn’t going to accomplish anything good. These children already share a disproportionate amount of depression, homelessness, and suicide. I can’t imagine these laws will help things. Or their families.

These laws do the exact opposite. They humanize people. Why do you think the transgender community, and specifically biological males who identify as trans, have such a high rate of suicide? Why? I guarantee that whatever ridiculous justification you have in your head, it is unsupported by the data. Those who receive "gender affirming" surgery have a higher rate of suicide than the general public. Those who identify as trans but don't have the surgery also have a higher rate of suicide than the general public. People who identify as trans and live in supportive environments or don't live in supportive environments both have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

There is less suicide and depression in war zones and death camps than there is in the trans community. It isn't because life is so hard for people who identify as transgender. Humans actually are adapted to do surprisingly well in those kinds of environments. The reason the suicide rate is so high for biological males who identify as transgender is the same reason old guys die soon after their wife dies, or why the suicide rate is so high for men after losing a job, or the suicide rate is so high for men after a divorce.

There is no magic solution to make a biological male who identifies as transgender to not be a human and subject to all the things evolution has baked in to biological males. In our society today, there clearly is a social contagion aspect to the explosion in transgender identification and I would argue that preventing pedophiles from grooming 5 year old to 8 year old children to start down the path of transgender identification may be one of the most important things we can do to protect those individuals.

 

[One Brow]

Here is the controversial provision: "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."

I disagree that this is the controversial provision.

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022/1557/BillText/er/PDF

This is from the preamble, stating the goals of the bill:

prohibiting classroom discussion about sexual orientation or gender identity in certain grade levels or in a specified manner;

I remember when conservatives didn't like unfunded mandates:

requiring the Commissioner of Education to appoint a special magistrate for unresolved concerns; ... requiring school districts to bear the costs of the special magistrate;

Using lawsuits to settle what should be administrative concerns (when did conservatives get so fond of lawsuits):

authorizing a parent to bring an action against a school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that a school district procedure or practice violates certain provisions of law;

However, let's look carefully at "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade..."

That means no teaching about being straight, either. Since the goal is "prohibiting classroom discussion", no more stories with husbands and wives, or boys who gorw up to be men, or girls who grow up to be women, until grade 4. No talking about your spouse or your parents, unless you have a single parent. Is this what you support? That's how the bill reads.

This law is an anti-pedophile law. It makes it harder for pedophiles who have jobs teaching 5-8 year old kids to groom them.

Was there some large number of elementary school teachers that were engaging in pedophilia in the classroom? Did your brain engage at all when you typed this, or does it just shut off when when someone says "pedophile"?

By the way, this law also prevents teachers from telling children how to stay safe from pedophile grooming, because you can't do that without talking about sex and orientation.. If anything, it's pro-pedophile.

These laws do the exact opposite. They humanize people.

By preventing teachers from discussing a basic human experience in any fashion in grades K-3?

Why do you think the transgender community, and specifically biological males who identify as trans, have such a high rate of suicide? Why?

One reason that comes to mind is people who insist on referring to them as "biological males" as opposed to girls.

Those who receive "gender affirming" surgery have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

So, those who are the most committed to their transition, and therefore the biggest targets of hate, also have the highest rate of suicide? You think this is a statistic that (even if true, and I don't know that it is) support your position?

Those who identify as trans but don't have the surgery also have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

Hate has that effect.

People who identify as trans and live in supportive environments or don't live in supportive environments both have a higher rate of suicide than the general public.

Where are these supportive environments for trans people? I only know of areas where you experience the hate a little less frequently. At any rate, I notice you didn't compare those who live in relatively more supportive environment to those who do not. If you were interested in reducing the suicide rate, instead of trying to use it as a cudgel, you would support inclusion.

Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons - PMC

Suicide rate and suicidal tendencies among transgender persons are considerably high compared to general population. Hence, this review is an attempt to understand the issues around the suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons. The ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The studies have identified a number of risk factors for the high rates of suicide and suicidal behavior among transgender persons. The discrimination of the transgender persons in the society has prevented them from obtaining an education, job, and housing because of which they are living in slums or street and have to resort to begging and sex work;[10] this pitiful conditions have lead them to breakdown further and end their life in suicide.[6] Stigma, discrimination, and violence against transgender persons occur across multiple social and institutional contexts; they are verbally harassed, physical and sexually abused[11] and blackmailed by the police and rowdies; rejection, hateredness, verbal and physical abuse from friends and family members, stigmatization, refusal of services, and derogatory labeling at health-care system, etc., have lead them to lose interest in day-to-day activities; the risk of HIV and HIV status increase their psychological distress, and they express thoughts of committing suicide.[17] The suicidality among sexual minority community is associated with poor mental health condition in forms of mental illness,[20,21] psychological pain, emotion fatigue, and low self-esteem; life being hard, being confused about one's sexuality or difficulty in accepting it, not being able to disclose one's sexuality,[8] bullying, history of forced sex, gender-based discrimination, and victimization[9] and isolation are the other reasons for suicide among this population.[10] Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) assault hate crimes at the neighborhood are an additional sociocontextual risk factors for suicidal ideation and attempts among sexual-minority adolescents.[22]

It isn't because life is so hard for people who identify as transgender.

We have the word of this white, cis, hetero man on whose life is hard.

... and I would argue that preventing pedophiles from grooming 5 year old to 8 year old children to start down the path of transgender identification may be one of the most important things we can do to protect those individuals.

Where did you get the idea that there is any connection between being molested and being trans?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

let's look carefully at "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade..."

That means no teaching about being straight, either. Since the goal is "prohibiting classroom discussion", no more stories with husbands and wives, or boys who gorw up to be men, or girls who grow up to be women, until grade 4. No talking about your spouse or your parents, unless you have a single parent. Is this what you support? That's how the bill reads.

It is what most people support. It is what Democrats, Biden voters, and people who know someone LGBTQ support. Teachers do not need to explain who they have sex with to 5 year old kids regardless of it being sex with men or sex with women. Children in K-3 do not need, and should not get, sex education in the classroom against the will of the parents.

As for the rest of your hysteria over stories containing nuclear families, boys growing up to be men or girls growing up to be women, it isn't included and wouldn't get a school sued. Being that this law is going in to effect, it will be easy to debunk your claims when no lawsuits in that direction are filed.

 

[One Brow]

It is what most people support.

I asked what *you* support.

I think "most people" are reacting on incomplete information and without thinking this bill through.

Teachers do not need to explain who they have sex with to 5 year old kids regardless of it being sex with men or sex with women. Children in K-3 do not need, and should not get, sex education in the classroom against the will of the parents.

Pedophiles of Florida rejoice in your position.

As for the rest of your hysteria over stories containing nuclear families, boys growing up to be men or girls growing up to be women, it isn't included and wouldn't get a school sued.

So, what you are counting on is that no one will complain about stories/discussions of boys growing up to be men, but people will complain about stories/discussions of boys growing up to be be women. You are counting on the hate of the parents to allow de facto discrimination to replace a de jure equality.

Being that this law is going in to effect, it will be easy to debunk your claims when no lawsuits in that direction are filed.

I actually agree that no lawsuits will be filed, because few people care about breaking laws when no one agrees with them. As usual, you either missed the point, or thought something was hidden when it's all too obvious.

 

[gandalfe]

However, let's look carefully at "Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in Kindergarten through third grade..."

That actually leaves off one of the most important parts, that's getting no attention.

"in Kindergarten through third grade or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards"

The K-3 is getting the most press, because that's spelled out and most people would probably agree that discussing these topics in an in depth way is probably not right for kids that young. But the second part of that "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" means that if ANYONE said it was inappropriate at any grade level, they could conceivably shut it down. So when Johnny goes to his AP Social Studies teacher when they're 17 and says they're actually Jenny, the teacher couldn't discuss it with them. THAT'S the real intent. It has a chilling effect, too, of course.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

the second part of that "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" means that if ANYONE said it was inappropriate at any grade level, they could conceivably shut it down. So when Johnny goes to his AP Social Studies teacher when they're 17 and says they're actually Jenny, the teacher couldn't discuss it with them. THAT'S the real intent. It has a chilling effect, too, of course.

For the sake of argument, let's say everything you state here is true. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?

 

[gandalfe]

For the sake of argument, let's say everything you state here is true. Why is a chilling effect on a thing that data indicates is a contributor to suicide a bad thing?

What is the data? I know you said some stuff, but only in vague terms. If the data is part of your argument, provide the data.

Also, let me be absolutely clear about something: Your repeated use the the term "biological males" to refer to trans women and girls, when you have been told repeatedly that it is wrong and reductive, is both offensive and abusive. It's clearly hate speech, and will be treated as such.

 

[One Brow]

The K-3 is getting the most press, because that's spelled out and most people would probably agree that discussing these topics in an in depth way is probably not right for kids that young.

I think a discussion of "good touch, bad touch" is pretty appropriate even in Kindergarten. This law seems to make that illegal.

But the second part of that "age appropriate or developmentally appropriate" means that if ANYONE said it was inappropriate at any grade level, they could conceivably shut it down. So when Johnny goes to his AP Social Studies teacher when they're 17 and says they're actually Jenny, the teacher couldn't discuss it with them. THAT'S the real intent. It has a chilling effect, too, of course.

From what I can tell, it's just a bad law, which is what happens when you take hate and try to dress it up as a law supporting equal treatment.