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Game Thread Apr 18, 2022 06:30PM MT: Jazz at Mavericks - Game 2

Added to Calendar: 04-18-22

LoPo said:
Donovan can't be our only capable offensive player and be our defensive stopper. No guard/wing in the history of the NBA has been able to do that successfully.

Donovan needs to be our worst perimeter defender yet we got guys just as bad out there along with a system built around a big man that clearly doesn't work.

I would try NAW out some. Seriously, what do we have to lose?


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Eh, I don't know, there are a lot of scoring guards that play(ed) passable D at least. This year look at Booker for example. Obviously some of the guys like Jordan or Kobe, but they are superstars and Mitchell is not close to that tier. Or Gary Payton, for a PG that could do both. Even some players not necessarily on the top but solidly in the mix such as Lowry and the guy I wanted over Conley, Brogdon, who would have been a stellar running-mate to Mitchell. Holiday fits that mold too. Even like a LaMelo Ball and Lonzo are better ball-dominant wings with better D than Mitchell. Don't even get started on Curry, who is a plus defender, and Thompson, a stellar scoring wing and defensive player.

They do exist, and some have shown they can step up this part of their game. I think Mitchell is just too small and doesn't have the skill-set, nor the desire, to be a strong defender. The desire part is the worst. Look at Caruso to see what desire can get you, as he is in no way the superior athlete nor has the strongest skill-set, but his desire and effort have made him one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Of course he doesn't have the offensive burden, so look no further than Booker for a great apples to apples comparison to Mitchell, as Booker has really stepped up his D this year and it has paid big dividends as the Suns are very likely to win it all this year.

I don't expect Donovan to be the scoring champ and the DPOY, but he could at least improve enough to kind of bother someone like Brunson, who is not known as a scoring powerhouse. But he plays matador defense, along with Conley, which allows record nights from these guys.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Eh, I don't know, there are a lot of scoring guards that play(ed) passable D at least. This year look at Booker for example. Obviously some of the guys like Jordan or Kobe, but they are superstars and Mitchell is not close to that tier. Or Gary Payton, for a PG that could do both. Even some players not necessarily on the top but solidly in the mix such as Lowry and the guy I wanted over Conley, Brogdon, who would have been a stellar running-mate to Mitchell. Holiday fits that mold too. Even like a LaMelo Ball and Lonzo are better ball-dominant wings with better D than Mitchell. Don't even get started on Curry, who is a plus defender, and Thompson, a stellar scoring wing and defensive player.

They do exist, and some have shown they can step up this part of their game. I think Mitchell is just too small and doesn't have the skill-set, nor the desire, to be a strong defender. The desire part is the worst. Look at Caruso to see what desire can get you, as he is in no way the superior athlete nor has the strongest skill-set, but his desire and effort have made him one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Of course he doesn't have the offensive burden, so look no further than Booker for a great apples to apples comparison to Mitchell, as Booker has really stepped up his D this year and it has paid big dividends as the Suns are very likely to win it all this year.

I don't expect Donovan to be the scoring champ and the DPOY, but he could at least improve enough to kind of bother someone like Brunson, who is not known as a scoring powerhouse. But he plays matador defense, along with Conley, which allows record nights from these guys.
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Why we went old in signing Conley over signing a young buck a la Brogdon (pun intended) will never make sense to me. This front office squandered away our best chance. ****ing morons.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Eh, I don't know, there are a lot of scoring guards that play(ed) passable D at least. This year look at Booker for example. Obviously some of the guys like Jordan or Kobe, but they are superstars and Mitchell is not close to that tier. Or Gary Payton, for a PG that could do both. Even some players not necessarily on the top but solidly in the mix such as Lowry and the guy I wanted over Conley, Brogdon, who would have been a stellar running-mate to Mitchell. Holiday fits that mold too. Even like a LaMelo Ball and Lonzo are better ball-dominant wings with better D than Mitchell. Don't even get started on Curry, who is a plus defender, and Thompson, a stellar scoring wing and defensive player.

They do exist, and some have shown they can step up this part of their game. I think Mitchell is just too small and doesn't have the skill-set, nor the desire, to be a strong defender. The desire part is the worst. Look at Caruso to see what desire can get you, as he is in no way the superior athlete nor has the strongest skill-set, but his desire and effort have made him one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Of course he doesn't have the offensive burden, so look no further than Booker for a great apples to apples comparison to Mitchell, as Booker has really stepped up his D this year and it has paid big dividends as the Suns are very likely to win it all this year.

I don't expect Donovan to be the scoring champ and the DPOY, but he could at least improve enough to kind of bother someone like Brunson, who is not known as a scoring powerhouse. But he plays matador defense, along with Conley, which allows record nights from these guys.
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I can stand hes poor defense but man he shooting 14% in 4th is what costs us last game. And yet after playoffs ppl gonna talk about hes 30 points per game and no1 gonna say that he took 30 shots for it ...
 
Agent#00 said:
sad reality is if we can't contain Brunson then we have no chance of containing CP3.
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Or Booker. Or Payne. Or Craig. Or Payton. Or Johnson. All of them could be the next recipient of the Utah Jazz Playoffs Career High award, given to whichever guard/wing realizes we will do nothing to stop them on any given night.

Previous recipients include Murray, Mann and Brunson. Who is next? It could be YOU!
 
I'm more done with Quin than anything. He's been riding this genius thing for so long while continually choking and refusing to adapt in the playoffs. Both between games and in the middle of them when everything is collapsing around them.

Could just be burnout on a long-time coach. But the culture and vibes around this team are just awful, and Quin doesn't get a pass on that.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
From the quotes after the game, from what I gather, is that Bogey is supposed to rotate down here, then House rotates to Bogey's guy and Donovan should rotate back up top to House's guy. Would be pretty simple defense actually. Our guys are being a little undersized and slow doesn't help our ability to rotate and help the helper, but specifically on this play it should have been easy. Mitchell needs to contain Dinwiddie better, obviously, but Bogey has to rotate. Maybe Juancho could have been better at recognizing the rotation here?

If our guards can't defend in isolation and our wings can't rotate then you have to find a way to get Gobert at the point of attack.
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This is help defense 101.
 
I'm all on board the Fire Quin bandwagon now. The fact he can't seem to make the most basic adjustments either proves he's too stupid or too stubborn, and I don't think he's stupid at all. Being stubborn in the face of awful results is not a great trait to have in a coach though.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Eh, I don't know, there are a lot of scoring guards that play(ed) passable D at least. This year look at Booker for example. Obviously some of the guys like Jordan or Kobe, but they are superstars and Mitchell is not close to that tier. Or Gary Payton, for a PG that could do both. Even some players not necessarily on the top but solidly in the mix such as Lowry and the guy I wanted over Conley, Brogdon, who would have been a stellar running-mate to Mitchell. Holiday fits that mold too. Even like a LaMelo Ball and Lonzo are better ball-dominant wings with better D than Mitchell. Don't even get started on Curry, who is a plus defender, and Thompson, a stellar scoring wing and defensive player.

They do exist, and some have shown they can step up this part of their game. I think Mitchell is just too small and doesn't have the skill-set, nor the desire, to be a strong defender. The desire part is the worst. Look at Caruso to see what desire can get you, as he is in no way the superior athlete nor has the strongest skill-set, but his desire and effort have made him one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Of course he doesn't have the offensive burden, so look no further than Booker for a great apples to apples comparison to Mitchell, as Booker has really stepped up his D this year and it has paid big dividends as the Suns are very likely to win it all this year.

I don't expect Donovan to be the scoring champ and the DPOY, but he could at least improve enough to kind of bother someone like Brunson, who is not known as a scoring powerhouse. But he plays matador defense, along with Conley, which allows record nights from these guys.
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Jordan and Kobe were good defenders, but they were never asked to be their team's best perimeter defender. There were other guys who played that role intentionally. Gary Payton is a good shout.

Booker isn't a fair example at all. Chris Paul, Bridges, Crowder and even Craig are all better defenders than Booker. He is literally surrounded by better offensive and defensive talent.

Steph Curry is only a plus defender when he's surrounded by guys like Klay, Draymond, Porter, etc.

Donovan needs to shoot better down the stretch, but he doesn't have a single capable person on offense with him down the stretch who can create space and offense. And on defense, our perimeter defending options suck. So yeah, Don is flawed, but what the hell does everybody expect him to do when Conley is playing like garbage on both ends, Royce has a bunch of flaws, and Bogey gets lost all the time?
 
Katastrofica said:
I can stand hes poor defense but man he shooting 14% in 4th is what costs us last game. And yet after playoffs ppl gonna talk about hes 30 points per game and no1 gonna say that he took 30 shots for it ...
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Don's shooting down the stretch is hurting us, but let's not deflect from the main issue - 17 wide open made 3's cost us the game.
 
LoPo said:
Jordan and Kobe were good defenders, but they were never asked to be their team's best perimeter defender. There were other guys who played that role intentionally. Gary Payton is a good shout.

Booker isn't a fair example at all. Chris Paul, Bridges, Crowder and even Craig are all better defenders than Booker. He is literally surrounded by better offensive and defensive talent.

Steph Curry is only a plus defender when he's surrounded by guys like Klay, Draymond, Porter, etc.

Donovan needs to shoot better down the stretch, but he doesn't have a single capable person on offense with him down the stretch who can create space and offense. And on defense, our perimeter defending options suck. So yeah, Don is flawed, but what the hell does everybody expect him to do when Conley is playing like garbage on both ends, Royce has a bunch of flaws, and Bogey gets lost all the time?
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I already explained what I expected.

I don't expect Donovan to be the scoring champ and the DPOY, but he could at least improve enough to kind of bother someone like Brunson, who is not known as a scoring powerhouse. But he plays matador defense, along with Conley, which allows record nights from these guys.
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And I think Booker is a perfect example. Yes the surrounding cast in Phoenix is just plain better than ours, but you cannot downplay the fact that Booker took it upon himself to be a better defender while also being their top scorer, and in this he succeeded. That is work ethic, effort, and desire. Mitchell should learn from Booker and make a better effort on defense to at least bother the opposing guard or get in his way or close out more effectively, etc. Maybe if Mitchell were the leader he is supposed to be and he expected himself and his team to play better defense and he showed that effort, then others would follow and we would get better. That is what CP3 did in Phx. Lead by example and set the expectation, and the other followed. But Mitchell can't be bothered to attempt to play D, he has to jack up those contested shots he practiced all summer, while ignoring anyone in position for a lob, or spotting for an open 3 late in the game. It is the way.

And frankly early in the season that is one reason we were winning. Mitchell came out this year and looked like he was trying to follow that model. And he was modestly successful at it, enough to raise his defensive presence to passable. Somewhere in all the COVID and injuries that completely fell by the wayside and he just stopped making that effort, and the team did as well, and we started to fall apart. It is not all on Mitchell, but what I am saying is he has shown he can be a plus defender if he cares to. He just doesn't seem to care to very much.
 
Booker is a bad example solely because he has multiple offensive and defensive options that Donovan does not have. That's just the reality.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I think Juancho would have better covered for Kleber. He has better size and mobility than bogey and he can spot up from 3. House needed to be on the floor more than Royce. Why not try Butler or Forrest on Brunson even for a few minutes. All of these guys have shown better defensive chops than 3 of our 4 starters, maybe better than 4 of them. At least something to bother their primary scorers a little bit. I know the offense is an issue at that point but right now we can't close both gaps, so we should have tried to close one of them.
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Good post
 
LogGrad98 said:
To be fair that's why Lindsey got fired.
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And then we doubled down on the dumb. Herb Jones was a no brainer. I like butler as a prospect. But unless we expected to trade Clarkson/Conley, that was a horrendous pick. Herb Jones was right there. Would’ve gone a long way to cure a lot of the problems that have plagued us over the past 3-4 years
 
I guess if we want to look on the bright side, the Mavs played a nearly perfect game and still only beat us by 6 points. They shot 22/47 from 3, only had 3 turnovers, Brunson had a career high of 41 on extremely efficient shooting, and Kleber shot 8/11 from 3. There is no way they duplicate that performance again in this series.
 
Sean said:
Booker is a bad example solely because he has multiple offensive and defensive options that Donovan does not have. That's just the reality.
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Exactly. Booker has it much easier on offense and defense, and he still isn't better than Donovan.

Our system and personnel suck. Don and Rudy really don't have a good chance doing what Quin wants to do with what they have available to them.
 
Jingled said:
I guess if we want to look on the bright side, the Mavs played a nearly perfect game and still only beat us by 6 points. They shot 22/47 from 3, only had 3 turnovers, Brunson had a career high of 41 on extremely efficient shooting, and Kleber shot 8/11 from 3. There is no way they duplicate that performance again in this series.
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I'm not up for bright side today (maybe I'll get there by Thursday). The reason they shot so well is because we didn't contest their shots, let them get in rhythm, and they employed a strategy that is completely reproducible since we have no answer for it after all of this time (even though simple rotations is all we would need to do).
 
LoPo said:
Exactly. Booker has it much easier on offense and defense, and he still isn't better than Donovan.

Our system and personnel suck. Don and Rudy really don't have a good chance doing what Quin wants to do with what they have available to them.
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Phx has backup wings better than our starting wings. Cam Johnson only averages 26 mins for them off the bench. He’d easily start and be our best wing right now.
 
While I agree with the sentiments on this page, may I remind everyone that when we had Favors (version 1), Rubio, Crowder, etc, and a great Defense, we retooled to get 4 shooters around Rudy and spacing for Don.

The pendulum swung too far.
 
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