Are you guys completely cool with your kids dating/marrying someone of a different race?

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Congrats. You linked to something where I am bolding a part of your reply that deals with Mormons and addressing that portion of it. Never got into Catholics or JWs.

Because Catholics and JWs don't make up part of the general culture around them?

However, reading it this morning, you were responding to a point I made about people on this message board, and not the general populace, so I did over-generalize your response in that way. My fault on that score.

Would I tell a son to "woman up"? No, of course not. But I do not tell my daughters to "man up".

Do you tell your daughters to "woman up"? Would you tell your son to "man up"? Do Mormons refrain from using the second phrase on boys? If so, then ignore the next paragraph.

If not, think about the message being given. When you tell your son to "man up", you putting forth the notion of manhood as a worthy goal, By contrast, in not saying "woman up", you don't set the same sort of notion for your daughters. One anyone given day, it's not a big deal, but over time, all of your kids, nephews, etc. hear this difference, and not just from you, but from almost every other adult they know. You think the message doesn't get through? Try this: say "woman up" to your daughters (at the appropriate time, of course) in front of other people, see how they react.

 

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Oh my this thread grew really fast. Also it always baffles me that atheists argue about the supposed lack of morality in religions when in their worldview there is no such basis of objective morality so it is a self defeating argument.

Nice troll. Really. I'm completely hooked by this tired cliche.

 

[Hartsock]

Because Catholics and JWs don't make up part of the general culture around them?

However, reading it this morning, you were responding to a point I made about people on this message board, and not the general populace, so I did over-generalize your response in that way. My fault on that score.



Do you tell your daughters to "woman up"? Would you tell your son to "man up"? Do Mormons refrain from using the second phrase on boys? If so, then ignore the next paragraph.

If not, think about the message being given. When you tell your son to "man up", you putting forth the notion of manhood as a worthy goal, By contrast, in not saying "woman up", you don't set the same sort of notion for your daughters. One anyone given day, it's not a big deal, but over time, all of your kids, nephews, etc. hear this difference, and not just from you, but from almost every other adult they know. You think the message doesn't get through? Try this: say "woman up" to your daughters (at the appropriate time, of course) in front of other people, see how they react.

I cant tell if you are trolling or not? You know those shows where its a fake documentary and one guy is just making fun of everyone but they dont know it? I feel like thats whats happening.

 

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There are subsets are hostile sexism (misogyny/ misandry) and benevolent sexism (my example of “boys don’t do dishes”). This is both the case in common usage and in academic research, and yes, if you believe that sexism always involves hatred, I think this is inconsistent with both.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree.

1) Do you think the term "benevolent sexism" means that there is no contempt or prejudice expressed by it for either sex?
2) There is a difference between being a fertile soil for hatred and actively involving hatred at every step. I have tried to be clear that I have meant the former.

 

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Sorry, I don't really understand your answer. You seem to be saying that the only situations where a patriarchal group would not be misogynistic are ones that would be misandristic. But I don't think that's quite what you meant.

Separate but equal is a myth, a convenient lie we allow ourselves to believe. Segregation is always based on the notion that one side is less trusted than the other.

Let me repeat--are there any circumstances (in our current society, not in a hypothetical one) in which a church that has a male only priesthood would NOT be considered misogynistic by you? If so, what are they? I'm not trying to bait you or anything, I'm just interested in your opinion. From your posts in the thread, I think your view is "there are no such circumstances", but I might be wrong.

1) We live in a misogynistic culture; I would find it difficult to believe that such an organization could so completely separate itself from the culture. However, "any circumstances" is very broad, and my imagination is not so great that I can claim to have thought of all possible circumstances. So, under the rubric "anything is possible", it's possible.
2) As I said above, separate but equal is a myth in any culture.

 

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Nice try. There wasn't much conversation going on, I don't take challenging every statement as conversation, I take that as someone with an agenda and contradiction.

I asked you if your position expanded in some very specific ways, that seemed at odds with other policies, without saying you were wrong. You could have pointed out other reasons for those policies (I even suggested one in a later post). Your reaction was to claim I contradicted you. I was raised to expect every idea of mine to be challenged, sifted, and refined. Perhaps you're not comfortable with that approach, and took it as hostility.

Again, you don't owe me anything. However, when you make false statements about my motivations and intents, I'm not going to let them stand unchallenged.

 

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I cant tell if you are trolling or not? You know those shows where its a fake documentary and one guy is just making fun of everyone but they dont know it? I feel like thats whats happening.

I'm quite serious. Did you have any response beside incredulity?

 

[Hartsock]

I'm quite serious. Did you have any response beside incredulity?

I guess not. I'll incorporate "woman up" into my vocabulary. Hopefully it will lead to women getting the priesthood.

 

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I guess not. I'll incorporate "woman up" into my vocabulary. Hopefully it will lead to women getting the priesthood.

Baby steps.

 

[babe]

I asked you if your position expanded in some very specific ways, that seemed at odds with other policies, without saying you were wrong. You could have pointed out other reasons for those policies (I even suggested one in a later post). Your reaction was to claim I contradicted you. I was raised to expect every idea of mine to be challenged, sifted, and refined. Perhaps you're not comfortable with that approach, and took it as hostility.

Again, you don't owe me anything. However, when you make false statements about my motivations and intents, I'm not going to let them stand unchallenged.

whether the statements are true or false doesn't seem to make any difference sometimes. what would look good on your record is sometimes seeing the point someone else is making.

 

[babe]

Back to the OP.

Every marriage/every dating situation is going to be some kind of nightmare because no two people are ever going to be alike in every insignificant way,or in any significant way. Some geneticists explain the benefits of hybridization on the F1 generation, but most parents are just looking for transmitting their values and whatever else is their idea of "themselves" on to the next few generations.

yah, there will always be hate. In our generation it is for some a hatred of hatred, but calling people "racist" or going to any effort to incite the government, or the culture, to dictate personal morals through legislation like the pretended Equal Rights legislation is an extreme and intolerant hatred itself. Some people seem to be unable to bear letting anyone do anything they think is "wrong" somehow. Hence, the net effect of the Civil Rights legislation has been the creation of a newly defined caste system where some humans are not considered worthy of polite society, and are even thrown in jail and subjected to unequal treatment under the law because of their perceive inferiority.

not that I particularly like any kind of ignorance or intolerance. . . . I just realize it is inherent in human nature and cannot be corrected by force or indoctrination.

I married inter-racially, and I just think it's not so good. Why not let folks marry in a way that preserves the racial differences in the world if they want, or even if they think it's good for any reason, and just leave them the hell alone.

 

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whether the statements are true or false doesn't seem to make any difference sometimes. what would look good on your record is sometimes seeing the point someone else is making.

I've already said, in several different posts in this thread, variations of "that's a good thing" or "I didn't realize that". However, if there is some specific point you think I did not understand, I will take another look at it. Bear in mind, it's possible that I did understand the point, and still disagreed for various reasons, but did not make that clear. However, I do sometimes look at things too quickly, and I try to recognize that about myself.