Are you guys completely cool with your kids dating/marrying someone of a different race?

[One Brow]

This was the part that made me laugh. Some dude talking at length about how women are treated with contempt, hatred, etc.... and then saying this.
Seems pretty hypocritical to say this when you are doing just that.

If there are any women who feel I'm describing their experiences wrongly, I'll listen; it certainly won't change what I've read about it, and what I myself have seen once I realized there was something to see. I don't need to be a woman to recognize, in a meeting, when a man starts talking over a woman and everyone else just lets it happen. I don't need to be a woman to recognize, in a classroom, when a male student acts more disruptive when women are answering questions than when men are. I don't need to be a woman to recognize, in a board gaming group, when a man prefers the suggestions of any male player and ignores the suggestions of a female player. I'm still guilty of all of that, but I have been trying to improve the last couple of years, and I'm getting better. I'm living what I'm saying. Whatever I am, a hypocrite is not among them.

 

[One Brow]

Why do you make things so damn difficult?

I interpreted your comment to be in support of PearlWatson's claim that hormone levels would have some significance in who should be bishops, Relief Society Presidents, etc. It seems I was wrong. I apologize for my erroneous assumption.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

If there are any women who feel I'm describing their experiences wrongly, I'll listen; it certainly won't change what I've read about it, and what I myself have seen once I realized there was something to see. I don't need to be a woman to recognize, in a meeting, when a man starts talking over a woman and everyone else just lets it happen. I don't need to be a woman to recognize, in a classroom, when a male student acts more disruptive when women are answering questions than when men are. I don't need to be a woman to recognize, in a board gaming group, when a man prefers the suggestions of any male player and ignores the suggestions of a female player. I'm still guilty of all of that, but I have been trying to improve the last couple of years, and I'm getting better. I'm living what I'm saying. Whatever I am, a hypocrite is not among them.

Why do you think women need a man to be their champion in anything. That's as sexist/misogynistic/full of hate/dismissive/full of contempt as any of the other things you are saying are going on and wrong.

I don't need to be a woman to tell you that if you have seen these things that's great, and it's still your opinion. I have seen many many things that tell me otherwise. Are those things going on out there, sure. Maybe you are just hanging out with the wrong people.

The hypocritical part is that you are telling people that they are not a woman so they cant say what women feel or experience, and yet you are a man telling people what women feel or experience. That would be a pretty textbook definition of hypocritical.

 

[franklin]

Hormone levels also vary widely by person within a sex. Do you measure a man's testosterone level before allowing him to be a bishop? Any notion that hormone levels matter seems to be just another rationalization, if you don't actually care enough about hormone levels to measure them.

Na, we measure up early on with gym class.

 

[PearlWatson]

Men can also be single, infertile, or too old to have children. Further, this does not explain why the separation is needed in the first place.
If the hierarchy were mirrored, that would mean Relief Society Presidents had authority over a congregation in the manner that bishops do, the same responsibilities, etc. There would be the equivalent of women prophets and women in similar positions to other high-level offices. To my understanding, this is not true. Thus, your claim of "mirrored" is flatly false.

Females were given the power to bare children. God doesn't give exceptions on that.
Bishoprics mirror the godhead (3 dudes).

 

[PearlWatson]

I interpreted your comment to be in support of PearlWatson's claim that hormone levels would have some significance in who should be bishops, Relief Society Presidents, etc. It seems I was wrong. I apologize for my erroneous assumption.

The hormone level is why women are uniquely qualified to bare and raise children, goose.

 

[One Brow]

Why do you think women need a man to be their champion in anything.

They don't. The belief that they do is called White Knight Syndrome.

That's as sexist/misogynistic/full of hate/dismissive/full of contempt as any of the other things you are saying are going on and wrong.

I agree. Are you accusing me of White Knighting? Based on what evidence, outside of my discussion of the topic at all? Are you just trying another variation of "Just shut up"?

I don't need to be a woman to tell you that if you have seen these things that's great, and it's still your opinion. I have seen many many things that tell me otherwise. Are those things going on out there, sure. Maybe you are just hanging out with the wrong people.

Given that, so far by all appearances, you believe men should be in charge based on their nature, I'm skeptical of your observational awareness.

The hypocritical part is that you are telling people that they are not a woman so they cant say what women feel or experience, and yet you are a man telling people what women feel or experience. That would be a pretty textbook definition of hypocritical.

I'm describing behaviors and effects, not feelings and experiences. What any particular woman feels or experiences in response to a particular behavior will be different from any other particular woman, to varying degree.

 

[One Brow]

Females were given the power to bare children. God doesn't give exceptions on that.

Really? Many women can't bear children at all. Again, why deny them? Besides, I used to take off the kid's clothes for baths, my gender never prevented it.l

Bishoprics mirror the godhead (3 dudes).

I had a feeling JazzSpazz was going there, but I guess I'll never know.

Why can't a woman bishop mirror the godhead?

 

[One Brow]

The hormone level is why women are uniquely qualified to bare and raise children, goose.

I'm fairly sure it's the uterus that's needed to bear children, and either gender can and does raise children. This is just naked sexism.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Why do you think women need a man to be their champion in anything.

They don't.

Then why are you doing this?

That's as sexist/misogynistic/full of hate/dismissive/full of contempt as any of the other things you are saying are going on and wrong.

I agree. Are you accusing me of White Knighting? Based on what evidence, outside of my discussion of the topic at all? Are you just trying another variation of "Just shut up"?

I accused you of being a hypocrite. If I wanted to tell you to "Just shut up" I would.

I don't need to be a woman to tell you that if you have seen these things that's great, and it's still your opinion. I have seen many many things that tell me otherwise. Are those things going on out there, sure. Maybe you are just hanging out with the wrong people.

Given that, so far by all appearances, you believe men should be in charge based on their nature, I'm skeptical of your observational awareness.

And given that, so far by all appearances, you attribute false ideas to what I believe consistently even when told I do not believe such things, I'm skeptical of your mental capacity and motives.

The hypocritical part is that you are telling people that they are not a woman so they cant say what women feel or experience, and yet you are a man telling people what women feel or experience. That would be a pretty textbook definition of hypocritical.

I'm describing behaviors and effects, not feelings and experiences. What any particular woman feels or experiences in response to a particular behavior will be different from any other particular woman, to varying degree.

Oh, you wouldn't dare say what one woman feels or experiences, but you are good with telling what all women feel and experience. What are effects if not directly related to the feelings and experiences of the group you have attempted to seized authority to speak for of which you are not a part of?

For someone that does not believe in religion, you sure have the holier than thou attitude down pat.

 

[Stoked]

I agree but that then creates other numerous problems that I may not be in line with the pro gay agenda crowd.

For example, a college/university that is not on the public dime being forced to allow same sex housing. Or a non public adoption org. having to accept same sex couples. If they are private they should not be forced to accept it. Gay marriage should be allowed but it creates other problems that would need to be resolved.

 

[Stoked]

They don't. The belief that they do is called White Knight Syndrome.



I agree. Are you accusing me of White Knighting? Based on what evidence, outside of my discussion of the topic at all? Are you just trying another variation of "Just shut up"?



Given that, so far by all appearances, you believe men should be in charge based on their nature, I'm skeptical of your observational awareness.



I'm describing behaviors and effects, not feelings and experiences. What any particular woman feels or experiences in response to a particular behavior will be different from any other particular woman, to varying degree.

Who are you to speak for the womans perspective?

 

[PearlWatson]

I'm fairly sure it's the uterus that's needed to bear children, and either gender can and does raise children. This is just naked sexism.

The uterus, eggs, Fallopian tubes, breasts and milk, and the hormones that go along with it...all part of the innate/unique differences.

I meant mothering. Naked is the best kind.

 

[PearlWatson]

Just boys picking up my daughters. Call me old fashioned. Call me a misogynist. Call me sexist. I believe in treating a lady like a lady. That includes opening doors for them, carrying the groceries in, pulling a chair out for them, standing up when they excuse themselves from the table, never hitting a woman no matter what, etc. I think society could use a lot more chivalry and less PC ******** which is what you are peddling here.

Best post of the thread.

 

[Sandy Braille]

I genuinely regret making this thread.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I genuinely regret making this thread.

Sexist

 

[Sandy Braille]

Sexist

You just said ***. Reported.

 

[One Brow]

Then why are you doing this?

Because I genuinely believe in what I am saying, and because I want the world to be a better place for my daughters.

I accused you of being a hypocrite. If I wanted to tell you to "Just shut up" I would.

While some people try to disguise a "just shut up" argument, I accept this was not your intent. However, unless you are saying that only women should be arguing against sexism, I don't understand your claim of hypocrisy.

And given that, so far by all appearances, you attribute false ideas to what I believe consistently even when told I do not believe such things, I'm skeptical of your mental capacity and motives.

As you should be. I don't want anyone to accept my arguments because they think I'm smart or pure.

However, when I use a phrase like "by all appearances", it's because appearances can change. So far, you haven't offered anything that indicates an effort to rise above the common cultural misogyny we grow up in, either on your part or on the part of your religion. So far, your religion shows the symptoms of reinforcing it, by rules like a male-only bishopric. So far, I think your a very decent person, genuinely concerned for all, eager to be on the correct side of an issue (because most people feel that way and because of your posts), and perhaps you think that I don't believe or accept that. So far, I think you have allowed the genuineness of your intentions to keep you from seeing the unfairness of your church's doctrines. Any of those opinions are open to revision, based on further evidence.

Oh, you wouldn't dare say what one woman feels or experiences, but you are good with telling what all women feel and experience.

There is no "all women", but there are feelings and experiences shared by many different women, and you can read accounts of them in many places.

However, if at any point I said that I can say what a woman/women are feeling and experiencing (I do not recall so doing, but I acknowledge that I may have over-stepped), it was wrong for me to say that. Behaviors can observed, and effects can be measured, but I can't speak for what other people feel and experience. Not you, not any woman.

What are effects if not directly related to the feelings and experiences of the group you have attempted to seized authority to speak for of which you are not a part of?

Are you saying that it is not possible for a measurable phenomenon to be directly related to feelings and experiences? Are you asking for a list of effects that can be/have been seen/studied/measured? What authority have I seized?

For someone that does not believe in religion, you sure have the holier than thou attitude down pat.

Old habits die hard. I was religious for 35 years, had a five-year transition where I was basically deist, and came to atheism only about 10 years ago. I'm still working on that.

 

[One Brow]

For example, a college/university that is not on the public dime being forced to allow same sex housing. Or a non public adoption org. having to accept same sex couples. If they are private they should not be forced to accept it. Gay marriage should be allowed but it creates other problems that would need to be resolved.

If the private university accepts no government funding, they don't have to allow anything. However, I can't think of a single university in the country to forbids two people of the same sex to be roommates. In the more conservative universities, the dormitories are segregated by sex. Which college/university is this?

If the adoption agency does not accept government funds or government placements, they can set their own adoption standards.

Both of these are well-protected in 1st Amendment law.

 

[One Brow]

Who are you to speak for the womans perspective?

I am speaking for my perspective, about what I believe is important. Is there some reason this should not be important to me?