At the 1/4 Season Mark, How Are We Doing?

[TheGoldStandard]

I’m starting to feel this way. Kinda hard to move Royce to the bench because that gives away some of his best impact on the game (guarding the other teams’ better players)—but it might still be the right equation, all things considered.

Royce has the worst PER out of any player that gets reasonable minutes, he isn't the defender people think he is. The fact is, this teams gets completely exploited by every backcourt in the league, and Royce in the lineup really makes no difference in that regard. And what he provides on offense just doesn't move the needle much. He can't shoot off the dribble, has to be wide open to make a 3, and is not a great ball handler or passer. He developed great, and would be fine as a limited bench player, but he just doesn't bring a lot to the table.

That isn't to say he is bad, just very limited, and definitely not starting material.

 

[rjfan]

I’m starting to feel this way. Kinda hard to move Royce to the bench because that gives away some of his best impact on the game (guarding the other teams’ better players)—but it might still be the right equation, all things considered.

Maybe we can get away with traps early on, till we make the first subs ? Because if yes, he could get his 28 to 30 ish minutes off the bench and be a closer anyway, just a matter of adjust the lineups as to not be taking Gobert away from Ingles (which could/should be done whether Joe starts or not)

 

[NAOS]

We’re 24th in the league in assists.

 

[NAOS]

Royce has the worst PER out of any player that gets reasonable minutes, he isn't the defender people think he is. The fact is, this teams gets completely exploited by every backcourt in the league, and Royce in the lineup really makes no difference in that regard. And what he provides on offense just doesn't move the needle much. He can't shoot off the dribble, has to be wide open to make a 3, and is not a great ball handler or passer. He developed great, and would be fine as a limited bench player, but he just doesn't bring a lot to the table.

That isn't to say he is bad, just very limited, and definitely not starting material.

I disagree with a lot of this. I think he’s a good piece; we need his impact. Nobody besides Joe could have me thinking Royce should be dislodged from his spot

 

[LogGrad98]

I disagree with a lot of this. I think he’s a good piece; we need his impact. Nobody besides Joe could have me thinking Royce should be dislodged from his spot

Swapping Royce for Joe in the starting lineup, even limiting Joe's minutes to preserve his old ***, would be a net win for us. Joe is just so much better in the starting lineup and having another playmaker besides Conley makes a big difference.


Note I am not recognizing Mitchell as a playmaker because, well, he isn't. He is a scorer who is willing to pass. Joe and Conley are actual playmakers, really the only 2 on our team right now. Which is why it is a travesty they aren't putting more into Butler, imo.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think they are doing just fine. Gonna finish top 3 in the west. Should be better in the playoffs with the new additions. Decent chance at a championship imo. All you can ask for.

Btw I heard on the radio that Rudy Gay is shooting over 50% from 3 and from the field. That is some unexpected fantasticness. I think he will have a huge positive impact on the team and will be a difference maker in the playoffs. Would be a great small ball 5.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I disagree with a lot of this. I think he’s a good piece; we need his impact. Nobody besides Joe could have me thinking Royce should be dislodged from his spot

So you think his PER is lying? Royce's defense and lack of size at the 3/4 makes up for his limited offense? Royce is starting material? He is a good ball handler and passer? What exactly do you disagree with?

With two small (for NBA standards) players in Conley and Mitchell, w3 need more size in the starting lineup. 6'4" Royce at the 3/3 exacerbates the issue.

 

[b_line]

I'm feeling positive that they have this good record and point differential despite not really looking all that great to start out the season.

 

[Jingled]

Royce has the worst PER out of any player that gets reasonable minutes, he isn't the defender people think he is. The fact is, this teams gets completely exploited by every backcourt in the league, and Royce in the lineup really makes no difference in that regard. And what he provides on offense just doesn't move the needle much. He can't shoot off the dribble, has to be wide open to make a 3, and is not a great ball handler or passer. He developed great, and would be fine as a limited bench player, but he just doesn't bring a lot to the table.

That isn't to say he is bad, just very limited, and definitely not starting material.

JC's usage rate is extremely high, Royce's usage rate throughout his career has been extremely low and he doesn't need the ball in his hands or shots to be effective, feels like he'd be a perfect fit next to JC off the bench. Joe on the other hand needs the ball to be effective and needs to play the majority of his minutes with Rudy to utilize his pick and roll skills. It just makes so much sense to start Joe and bring Royce off the bench. I know the argument against it is that we need Royce's defense in the starting lineup but our defense has looked great the last two games without him, probably two of our best defensive games of the season.

It feels pointless to even be discussing this because we all know all know Quin is too stubborn to make the change.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

JC's usage rate is extremely high, Royce's usage rate throughout his career has been extremely low and he doesn't need the ball in his hands or shots to be effective, feels like he'd be a perfect fit next to JC off the bench. Joe on the other hand needs the ball to be effective and needs to play the majority of his minutes with Rudy to utilize his pick and roll skills. It just makes so much sense to start Joe and bring Royce off the bench. I know the argument against it is that we need Royce's defense in the starting lineup but our defense has looked great the last two games without him, probably two of our best defensive games of the season.

It feels pointless to even be discussing this because we all know all know Quin is too stubborn to make the change.

Agreed. When Nurkic drove and Joe and Joe was able to stand his ground (Nurk went on his ***), in the 1st qtr, it shows what Joe brings with his size on D.

 

[vegas]

I believe the Jazz are punching below their weight. I think it is up to them, including coaches to achieve a level of desire that moves them back into the competitior conversation. I don't mind them losing, it's the way they are losing. I'm looking for wins like the vintage Spurs groups that rested all the stars and the scrubs dismantled you anyways. That contrasts sharply with us dumping some bunnies recently that I see as lack of desire and focus.

I'm just lukewarm at this point. I need to see something that shows they want it even more than last year to believe things will be different. So far they want it less.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Regarding Royce vs Ingles in the starting lineup, keep in mind we just played two of the worst defenses in the NBA. That said, the starting lineup with Ingles looked really good, and should probably get more time together. Ingles has mostly looked like garbage this year, particularly on defense, but definitely stepped up his defense the last two games. He probably can't keep it up for the whole season. The other issue with Ingles starting is our lineups without Ingles or Conley are rough, we need a playmaker on the court and it's difficult to stagger their minutes if they are both starting.

Royce's rebounding is down this year, which makes him less useful in his role. His steals are way up though. I don't think he's suddenly become a worse rebounder, but most likely Rudy is getting those rebounds. His shooting is down, but likely gets back to his averages over the last few years. My biggest gripe with Royce would be the one or two boneheaded turnovers he makes per game.

The lineups with Royce in them work. They are almost all net positive. Royce is willing to take on the toughest defensive assignment each game while taking the fewest shots. He is a fantastic teammate, and a great role player. Royce is tough, plays hard, is a good rebounder, a decent passer, and an efficient offensive player.