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Now I know people want to take what Machiavelli says and apply it only to politics and ruthlessness, but Machiavelli was above all other things a truth teller. What he says is based on the nature of man more than on a strategy to being a good prince. So with that said, please glean from this the nature of man and the complications of conspiracy instead of focusing on how a prince avoids being assassinated as part of a conspiracy.

Oh, and I found this online so it's a copy and paste.



If it helps bring it into context swap "the prince" with the "American people" and where it says "the people" change it to "the illuminati" or "evil British bankers" or whomever it is you imagine these conspiracies are being carried out on behalf of.

Machiavelli's pamphlet on how it's better to be feared than loved is a serious work of philosophy? It's been a long time since I've read The Prince, but I was under the impression that it's a work of satire.

Edit: I looked into it, and it seems like there is a lot of disagreement within academia on whether The Prince is meant to be serious. I'm really surprised that anyone can actually take it seriously. When I first read it, I really enjoyed it as a work of satire. A mockery of the nobility's ridiculous strategies to gain and maintain power when they were clearly working against the zeitgeist of the Renaissance and the inevitable tides of change. As a serious work of philosophy, it sheds very little light on "human nature" and is generally silly.
 
Machiavelli's pamphlet on how it's better to be feared than loved is a serious work of philosophy? It's been a long time since I've read The Prince, but I was under the impression that it's a work of satire.

I'm not saying Machiavelli's "The Prince" is a philosophical guide to life.

But, are you familiar with what he said in whole about whether it is better to be feared than loved? He said it is very good to be loved but that love is fleeting and that your friends can easily stop loving you if there is more to be gained by opposing you. Whereas, fear is more secure...with examples of what sort of economy choices a person has to go through in crossing someone whom they fear.

He also goes on at great length why a prince must avoid being despised at all costs.

Machiavelli did his very best to tell the truth as he knew it and he was much smarter than your average bear. Obviously it is hard for people to translate his 1700s take to modern day without getting hung up on the cruelty that was normal during his time. If he was alive to day and writing "The CEO" there would be much less killing, I assure you.
 
I'm not saying Machiavelli's "The Prince" is a philosophical guide to life.

But, are you familiar with what he said in whole about whether it is better to be feared than loved? He said it is very good to be loved but that love is fleeting and that your friends can easily stop loving you if there is more to be gained by opposing you. Whereas, fear is more secure...with examples of what sort of economy choices a person has to go through in crossing someone whom they fear.

He also goes on at great length why a prince must avoid being despised at all costs.

Machiavelli did his very best to tell the truth as he knew it and he was much smarter than your average bear. Obviously it is hard for people to translate his 1700s take to modern day without getting hung up on the cruelty that was normal during his time. If he was alive to day and writing "The CEO" there would be much less killing, I assure you.

Read my edit. The guy was a life-long public servant, and he has written a lot of tedious bureaucratic tomes that nobody has heard of. I very much believe the book was written in jest. He didn't even bother to write it in Latin! That was blasphemously low-brow when it was written in the 1500s.
 
Read my edit. The guy was a life-long public servant, and he has written a lot of tedious bureaucratic tomes that nobody has heard of. I very much believe the book was written in jest. He didn't even bother to write it in Latin! That was blasphemously low-brow when it was written in the 1500s.

His numerous chapters on the use of auxiliary forces, or mercenaries, or the difference between obtaining a new principality that was ruled by a king vs one which was ruled by a senate (I'm just writing based on my recollection so I may be misstating certain things), and that the ruler should physically reside in a newly obtained principality is satire? You might try reading it again. The stuff people talk about when it comes to that book (pamphlet) is so blown out of proportion compared to the entire work. It's not a guide to ruthlessly gaining and maintaining power. Not even close. And what it was meant to be, Machiavelli's intent, has little to do with what it is today. The truth that can be extracted from it if you're willing to lose the context of it and just see what he's saying about human behavior.
 
I like this conversation.

A lot has been said about Machiavelli without understanding the satire or the serious implications. If it was intended to present both faces of the subject,it is sheer genius.
 
His numerous chapters on the use of auxiliary forces, or mercenaries, or the difference between obtaining a new principality that was ruled by a king vs one which was ruled by a senate (I'm just writing based on my recollection so I may be misstating certain things), and that the ruler should physically reside in a newly obtained principality is satire? You might try reading it again. The stuff people talk about when it comes to that book (pamphlet) is so blown out of proportion compared to the entire work. It's not a guide to ruthlessly gaining and maintaining power. Not even close. And what it was meant to be, Machiavelli's intent, has little to do with what it is today. The truth that can be extracted from it if you're willing to lose the context of it and just see what he's saying about human behavior.

It is commonly construed, as I have done, that Machiavelli was evil. If a person accepts it as valid, it is therefore a corruption of " true virtue". How people can think such things. . .. .seriously. . . . .is just amazing.

I realize that people today are in perfect earnest, in many instances, in believing they are doing something good, when others, equally vested in another view of things, can call it evil.

The human capacity for imagination, is unsurpassed. . . .
 
So, resuming the discussion with Game, I see some good reason why, during the Renaissance and Protestant Reformation, the ditherings of Machiavelli in regard to princely strategies for achieving the high and noble aims of relatively bloodless power transitions and public acceptance of governance became a hiss and a byword.

Machiavelli has no place in his plans for actual human rights or actual power vested in the people governed. It's all a black art designed to manipulate the populace. . . . for their own good, in the eyes of the princes. . .

And, of course, the question must arise in the context of Machiavelli's social standing, as to whether he actually meant to expose the princely arts as evil in the starkest terms. . . . mere mockery might not have entered his mind. . . . the point being a total take-down of government as it was. . . . .
 
Here is the Wiki link on Machiavelli. . . .

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli (Italian: [nikkoˈlɔ makjaˈvɛlli]; 3 May 1469 – 21 June 1527) was a Florentine historian, politician, diplomat, philosopher, humanist, and writer during the Renaissance. He was for many years an official in the Florentine Republic, with responsibilities in diplomatic and military affairs. He was a founder of modern political science, and more specifically political ethics. He also wrote comedies, carnival songs, and poetry. His personal correspondence is renowned in the Italian language. He was Secretary to the Second Chancery of the Republic of Florence from 1498 to 1512, when the Medici were out of power. He wrote his masterpiece, The Prince, after the Medici had recovered power and he no longer held a position of responsibility in Florence. His views on the importance of a strong ruler who was not afraid to be harsh with his subjects and enemies were most likely influenced by the Italian city-states, which due to a lack of unification were very vulnerable to other unified nation-states, such as France.

"Machiavellianism" is a widely used negative term to characterize unscrupulous politicians of the sort Machiavelli described in The Prince. The book itself gained enormous notoriety and wide readership because the author seemed to be endorsing behavior often deemed as evil and immoral. Because of this, the term "Machiavellian" is often associated with deceit, deviousness, ambition, and brutality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niccolò_Machiavelli
 
I consider it possible that the Medici, the protagonists as I understand it of modern power brokers in politics, were no favorites of Machiavelli, and that perhaps he was making a mockery of them, feigning an honorable call for unification of the weak Italian city-states by whatever means possible, and strengthening their power, in defense against larger threats to sovereignty and the public peace.

Of course, I know nothing, really. . . .just opening up to some questions, in hopes that some further study will inform more reliably. . . .
 
So whom will be pleased by the success of these (9-11, Sandy Hook, Boston Marathon) conspiracies? And who would be displeased if the conspiracy was discovered. Where is there more to gain for the countless people that would have to know that the events were not as we have been led to believe?


In the "Conspiratorial Press", as some might term the online and radio "conservatives" who link these events somehow, of course, the benefactors of these successes are the statists who needed to overcome a resistance believed to exist in the American public, to gun control, state surveillance of citizens, and other more or less traditional ideas of what our constitutional rights may be. We need to be made pliable to the managerial need for more tools for use in managing the public.

My own opinion might not run exactly like Alex Jones or John B. Wells.

Obviously, the flaw in your reasoning is the belief that it takes "countless people" who are "in the know" that these conspiracies are not as we have been led to believe by the establishment media. Machiavelli writes before the advent of modern psychological science and the development of scientific methods of public persuasion or mind control. The maintenance of a dominant line of indoctrination or of propaganda constantly bombarding the sensibilities of a harried if not misdirected mind would be an essential component to any modern scheme for securing changes in a nominative democratic nation. . . .

You have not read my previous comments very carefully because you missed references to techniques that Machiavelli probably never saw in operation. . . . organization of teams using compartmentalized information, even of two opposing teams each being guided from a single unseen point of management. . . . .

As I outlined above, with a public populated by persons who reflexively respond to authoritative instruction is rich in candidates for manipulation by a few authority figures. A whole fire department controlled by one chief, a whole police department managed by one chief. It is easy enough to explain that our national security depends on training done under realistic settings, and that if the public really knew it was "just an exercise", so would our enemies, and the values achieved in the exercise would be compromised to the possible loss of many many lives in some future event. . . .

In the cases of 9-11, Sandy Hook, and the Boston Marathon, there were specific plans referenced in the press for a training exercise on the day of the actual event. It does not take a thousand news reporters to create such a cover story, it only takes one "source" with credentials requesting such a notice, and instructing that it not be the most prominent news item of the day. . . . as was the case.

When it became "obvious" later that a real event happened, and there were lives lost in fact, it only takes a chief or two to comment that obviously, something real had happened coincidentally. It is a case of "plausible deniability" and of patriotic trustworthy professionalism in the ranks. You just don't go out and blab unless you're told to. You're a good American.

A third consideration is the possible development of a "professional" troupe consisting of compromised personnel who can be effectively handled if anyone steps out of line, of course well-paid. Such a troupe would be utilized sequentially in various "events". With the further consideration that these "professionals" receive psychological "management" as well. . . . with the most modern techniques and expertise of course. . . .

So, in my model "theory", the number of informed independent persons who could give enough fact to reveal the plan and how it was carried out is kept at an absolute minimum, by pinching the information both above and below the point of implementation. This makes a scheme like this possible with only a few who must have a reason like Machiavelli describes for keeping faith with the plan.
 
Now I know people want to take what Machiavelli says and apply it only to politics and ruthlessness, but Machiavelli was above all other things a truth teller. What he says is based on the nature of man more than on a strategy to being a good prince. So with that said, please glean from this the nature of man and the complications of conspiracy instead of focusing on how a prince avoids being assassinated as part of a conspiracy.

Oh, and I found this online so it's a copy and paste.



If it helps bring it into context swap "the prince" with the "American people" and where it says "the people" change it to "the illuminati" or "evil British bankers" or whomever it is you imagine these conspiracies are being carried out on behalf of.

Nevertheless, conspiracies do occur. The history of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln comes to mind. Anyone with great power will create some desperate unhappy people who are capable of conspiring against him, or his government. History generally induces the principle of Occam's Razor in explaining the event, and relegating it to merely a madman's blind hatred. . . .
 
Well, this thread did the impossible, and actually took a turn for the worse.

I rely on your objective analysis for determining how well my kite is flying. I consider your response to be a measure of at least 60% of the American Public. . . . .
 
I rely on your objective analysis for determining how well my kite is flying. I consider your response to be a measure of at least 60% of the American Public. . . . .

Damn.

60% of the public thinks like EJ Wells? No wonder so many things are screwed up.
 
Damn.

60% of the public thinks like EJ Wells? No wonder so many things are screwed up.

I was referring to the top 60%, not your peer group. . . .some retorts are too irresistible, no matter how unfounded.. . . Ala trout sometimes.

Actually, as a student of Ambrose Bierce, I stoutly insist on a symmetric equality across sociological differences such as education.

Typically, academic indoctrination is a process of conversion of perfectly sensible and resourceful humans into imbecilic professionals of unsurpassed incompetents.
 
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I was referring to the top 60%, not your peer group. . . .someretorts are too irresistible, no matter how unfounded.. . . Ala trout sometimes.

Actually, as a student of Ambrose Bierce, I stoutly insist on a symmetric equality across sociological differences such as education.

Typically, academic indoctrination is a process of conversion of perfectly sensible and resourceful humans into imbecilic professionals of unsurpassed incompetents.

Um, thanks?
 
Um, thanks?

Hack is my idea of a reincarnation of Ain't. Actually pretty smart lots of times, and I could have just joined him in a little social feeding frenzy on Trout. However, I prefer much more complicated slams, with much more ambiguity.

But mostly I just like to stack up glorified verbiage and overwhelm the natives in here.
 
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