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Court: California gay marriage ban is unconstitutional

I'm happy for the gays of California. But I actually disagree with the ruling. I think if the prop 8 vote was held in 2012, no way would it have passed. Just four years later and the people, if you believe polls, were ready to overturn it. Public approval of gays is climbing rapidly: it's inevitable gays will get equal rights, just like it was with blacks. People are coming around, kids are convincing parents, and so on.

This would have been a bigger victory for the gay community if the people of California themselves had made the right decision, instead of the judges getting all the credit.
 
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I'm happy for the gays of California. But I actually disagree with the ruling. I think if the prop 8 vote was held in 2012, no way would it have passed. Just four years later and the people, if you believe polls, were ready to overturn it. Public approval of gays is climbing rapidly: it's inevitable gays will get equal rights, just like it was with blacks. People are coming around, kids are convincing parents, and so on.

This would have been a bigger victory for the gay community if the people of California themselves had made the right decision, instead of the judges getting all the credit.

Good post.

I remember having "the talk" with my old man. It is one of the only times that I can remember him actually thanking me for my opinions. He has since changed his tune, and it's really a breath of fresh air.
 
Funny how most people here can just throw stuff out without explaining themselves, but everyone demands that I explain everything I post and give reasons.

You have yet to explain anything. You throw out claims about things without supporting these claims with any legitimate resources (besides suggesting we watch a documentary. No one wants to watch a full documentary, it would be better just to explain the main points to us).
 
Just a dollar? Doesn't sound like a confident bet


Funny, you guys keep saying that I did'nt provide any reasons for the way I think.

I did. You guys did'nt agree and said so.
That's why I don't provide much. YOu just want me to say something that you can crack on.

Incorrect. We simply want reasons that we can discuss with you. You provided one clear instance of some reasons, which I noted -- those having to do with forcing religions to participate in ceremonies with which they disagree. These concerns have been answerd. If you would like to rebut, feel free. Otherwise we must assume you concede the point.

Yet on the whole, you have merely asserted your belief without providing reasons. "Because I think homosexuality is morally wrong" and similar statements are not reasons, just statements of a dogmatic position.

For instance, let's say I assert that the moon is made of blue cheese. You could tell me I'm wrong, but if I fail to provide reasons for my belief that the moon is made of blue cheese, then I can claim, as you do, that I have plenty of reasons that I am not willing to explain for fear of people "crack[ing] on" me. After this sort of discussion had gone on long enough, I think people would quite rightly be annoyed with me, since they are willing to give reasons which can be debated while I refuse to do so. To them, I am quite self-evidently wrong about the moon being made of blue cheese, but they cannot even begin to make a point because I will not allow myself to be criticized.

I understand that these discussions are polemical. "Preaching to the choir" is an extremely salient phrase, because the fact is that we are unlikely to convince anyone on a friggin' messageboard to completely change their point of view. But as I've said, if we cannot at least allow ourselves to be somewhat vulnerable in disclosing our own reasons for our beliefs, then we may as well not bother talking about the subject at all, because then there is absolutely no hope that any change will be made one way or the other. You will not persuade us to shift our position even one iota, and we will fail similarly with you, were we unwilling to discuss why we think the way we do.

I have put myself out there. I have laid out numerous and detailed reasons why I think homosexuality is perfectly moral and acceptable in all respects. If you are unwilling to respond, then I can only assume that your own reasons are so weak that they will not stand up to criticism. I do not say this as a baiting tactic. But the fact is that if you really believe that homosexuality is wrong, and feel that it is in your best interest to oppose it, then sooner or later you will have to provide arguments to do so. If you do not, I am truly left with no option but to write you off. And if you're okay with that, in staying in your own little corner of the world with your belief without trying to convince anyone of the justness of your cause, then perhaps your belief is not so strong after all. You need not argue the issue here on this board. Such conversation tends to be more constructive in the "real world" away from the internet. But if you are going enter the discussion here, kindly stop complaining about being oppressed in your minority opinion. It's really quite narcissistic and unhelpful for all concerned. Make a real argument instead, or save yourself -- and others -- the aggravation, and take the conversation elsewhere.
 
You have yet to explain anything. You throw out claims about things without supporting these claims with any legitimate resources (besides suggesting we watch a documentary. No one wants to watch a full documentary, it would be better just to explain the main points to us).

watch the trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH8LkIqu1c8

Yeah, I'm sure if I provided sources, nobody would say that my sources are not acceptable.

I've been through this enough times.
 
Incorrect. We simply want reasons that we can discuss with you. You provided one clear instance of some reasons, which I noted -- those having to do with forcing religions to participate in ceremonies with which they disagree. These concerns have been answerd. If you would like to rebut, feel free. Otherwise we must assume you concede the point.

Yet on the whole, you have merely asserted your belief without providing reasons. "Because I think homosexuality is morally wrong" and similar statements are not reasons, just statements of a dogmatic position.

For instance, let's say I assert that the moon is made of blue cheese. You could tell me I'm wrong, but if I fail to provide reasons for my belief that the moon is made of blue cheese, then I can claim, as you do, that I have plenty of reasons that I am not willing to explain for fear of people "crack[ing] on" me. After this sort of discussion had gone on long enough, I think people would quite rightly be annoyed with me, since they are willing to give reasons which can be debated while I refuse to do so. To them, I am quite self-evidently wrong about the moon being made of blue cheese, but they cannot even begin to make a point because I will not allow myself to be criticized.

I understand that these discussions are polemical. "Preaching to the choir" is an extremely salient phrase, because the fact is that we are unlikely to convince anyone on a friggin' messageboard to completely change their point of view. But as I've said, if we cannot at least allow ourselves to be somewhat vulnerable in disclosing our own reasons for our beliefs, then we may as well not bother talking about the subject at all, because then there is absolutely no hope that any change will be made one way or the other. You will not persuade us to shift our position even one iota, and we will fail similarly with you, were we unwilling to discuss why we think the way we do.

I have put myself out there. I have laid out numerous and detailed reasons why I think homosexuality is perfectly moral and acceptable in all respects. If you are unwilling to respond, then I can only assume that your own reasons are so weak that they will not stand up to criticism. I do not say this as a baiting tactic. But the fact is that if you really believe that homosexuality is wrong, and feel that it is in your best interest to oppose it, then sooner or later you will have to provide arguments to do so. If you do not, I am truly left with no option but to write you off. And if you're okay with that, in staying in your own little corner of the world with your belief without trying to convince anyone of the justness of your cause, then perhaps your belief is not so strong after all. You need not argue the issue here on this board. Such conversation tends to be more constructive in the "real world" away from the internet. But if you are going enter the discussion here, kindly stop complaining about being oppressed in your minority opinion. It's really quite narcissistic and unhelpful for all concerned. Make a real argument instead, or save yourself -- and others -- the aggravation, and take the conversation elsewhere.

I really don't feel like reading that much text.
 
Athiest Preacher just earned a months worth of repz, yo. +14 as soon as humanly possible. Probably the best post I've read on this board. Ever.
 
Nice post AP. I really have nothing to add, mostly because I'm lazy, but also because I agree with you. I have a dollar that says Craig's first born turns out to be gay, just because his God can't stand the way he thinks. I'd be a fan of that God.
That would be an enjoyable irony. And the fact is, it's these kind of things that finally make some people change their minds. It's easy to hate an abstraction, and much harder to hate people who you are constantly ineracting with day-in and day-out, whether it be a family member, or co-worker, or whatever.
 
watch the trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH8LkIqu1c8

Yeah, I'm sure if I provided sources, nobody would say that my sources are not acceptable.

I've been through this enough times.


Wait, I thought you said this video wasn't biased? Anyone who says "The left does blah blah blah blah and everything bad in the world" (or replace left with right, either way) is biased.
 
Athiest Preacher just earned a months worth of repz, yo. +14 as soon as humanly possible. Probably the best post I've read on this board. Ever.
Thanks, Trout. I try.

Actually, I wish I could contribute more to this thread as it unfolds further, but I'm set to go on a trip to Disneyland tomorrow with my mother. She's having surgery and wanted to spend some time with me before that happens (although it's not actually anything dangerous... but still surgery). I'll be gone until Saturday. Should be fun. Haven't been to Disneyland in over ten years.
 
Wait, I thought you said this video wasn't biased? Anyone who says "The left does blah blah blah blah and everything bad in the world" (or replace left with right, either way) is biased.

REEEEEAAAAAAALLLLLLY? SO if you don't agree with my source, then it is biased.

Did I not say that you would say that?

DUH!

Well, you have provided some entertainment. But I really think I was having more fun in the "Woman's logic" thread.

SHEESH!
 
This video was very informative for me. A true eye-opener.

Step One:

Make our kids gay by giving them books.

And of course, everyone knows that gays=communists.
 
Thank you, Jazzfanz. That's it for me!

Goodnight everybody!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O27RzZEOkeA

K-UUUUGER!!!!!
 
I started reading and immediately got bored. Sorry. Some people write in such a way that I must read it. Others.....
I find it deeply amusing that you (above) jump all over people with caps and exclamation points for simply saying your source is biased. And yet when I provide substantive reasons for you to respond to, you can't be bothered. Because, you know... then you might actually lose the argument. Much safer for you to say nothing and just snipe at people.

I hope you realize that the only one who looks silly in this conversation is you. People pay money to see people make lesser fools of themselves than you are doing for free.
 
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