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Debunking the "losing is bad for culture" people. To win a title, you have to suck.

How many Championship have the Jazz won trying it their way and Stroked's way and Hartsuck's way and oneblow's way?


Case closed.
 
green said:
Why can't your coach do those things?

Orlando, Dallas, Cleveland, Det, NJ, Phi, and OKC didn't have that culture.
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Coaches don't go on the floor to play. Maybe you don't understand what "example" means?

You think the fans in Orlando, Detroit, Cleveland, NJ, or Philly are happy this season, or will be next? Any finals on the horizon for them? You think Dallas will be tanking under Cuban? Outside of OKC, do any of those teams have a roster you'd trade for ours?
 
Hack said:
How many Championship have the Jazz won trying it their way and Stroked's way and Hartsuck's way and oneblow's way?


Case closed.
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Why would the case be closed due to an unconnected fact?

Are you saying that we don't currently have the core of a potential championship team, or that we do? Because if don't, this diatribe is pointless; if we do, the Jazz got it by doing things their way.
 
One Brow said:
Why would the case be closed due to an unconnected fact?

Are you saying that we don't currently have the core of a potential championship team, or that we do? Because if don't, this diatribe is pointless; if we do, the Jazz got it by doing things their way.
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No. The Jazz have this core because they drafted Dwill 3rd overall. Not exactly doing it their way. They were bad for a year.


Bingo
 
Hack said:
No. The Jazz have this core because they drafted Dwill 3rd overall. Not exactly doing it their way. They were bad for a year.


Bingo
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As I pointed out, even teams that make an effort to win every game possible have bad years, because every team has bad years. That's different from deliberately hiring/playing an inferior squad to improve draft position.
 
Imagine Chris Paul wearing a Jazz uniform next year:

Paul - Draft - Tinsley
Burks - Foye
Hayward - Carroll
Kanter - Evans - Draft
Favors - Veteran

That's a top team going forward. Contenders in like 2-3 years.
 
underKANTER said:
Imagine Chris Paul wearing a Jazz uniform next year:

Paul - Draft - Tinsley
Burks - Foye
Hayward - Carroll
Kanter - Evans - Draft
Favors - Veteran

That's a top team going forward. Contenders in like 2-3 years.
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Under Corbin it'd be more like

Paul - Tinsley - Draft
Foye - Burks
Carroll - Hayward
Kanter - Evans - Draft
Veteran - Favors
 
One Brow said:
As I pointed out, even teams that make an effort to win every game possible have bad years, because every team has bad years. That's different from deliberately hiring/playing an inferior squad to improve draft position.
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All you are doing is arguing the morality of it. Im arguing strategy. Big difference. You and others think its a cardinal sin to tank, as if it were cheating or something. Im arguing its good business.
 
green said:
Teams that have played in the NBA finals since 2000:

Miami
OKC
Dallas
LA
Bos
Orl
SA
Cle
Dal
Mia
Det
NJ
Phi
Ind

EVERY SINGLE TEAM HAD A TOP FIVE PICK EXCEPT FOR DALLAS, LA AND BOSTON. We are not Dallas, LA or Boston (and LA traded for Kobe at 13, drafted Bynum at 10, Boston drafted Pierce at 10, and Dallas took Dirk at 9, so all of those teams sucked to become champions as well).

Look at the picks taken in the top five:

Dwayne Wade
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
Dwight Howard
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Devin Harris
Kenyon Martin
Allen Iverson
Rick Smits

Picked 5-10:

Dirk Nowitzski
Andrew Bynum
Paul Pierce
Richard Hamilton

Other lottery picks:

Kobe Bryant
Richard Jefferson

If you don't have "losing" seasons, then none of those teams wins titles.

What else do you need to win a title?

Trades for very, very good players. Look at players acquired through trades:

Tyson Chandler
Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Ray Allen
Kevin Garnett
Jason Terry
Alonzo Mourning
Shaquille O'Neal
Rasheed Wallace
Jason Kidd
Dikembe Mutumbo
Jalen Rose
Mark Jackson

Then toss in a FA signing or two:

LeBron James
Chris Bosh
Jason Kidd
Hedo Turkeyglue
Rashard Lewis
Donyell Marshall
Chauncy Billups

Basically, what you need to win a title is this:

A top five pick in the draft that is a great pick. Out of the 14 "different" teams (I say different because the Dallas, Miami and LA teams all featured different "key" players), OKC, Miami, Dallas, Boston, Orlando, San Antonio, Cleveland, Dallas, Miami, NJ, Phi, and Indiana all had a top pick turn into a superstar.

Out of the 14 teams, only LA, Miami and Boston traded for or signed their championship teams. LA traded for Kobe and Gasol, and signed Shaq. Miami traded for Shaq and signed LeBron and Bosh. Boston traded for Garnett and Allen.

So, losing does not make you a loser. Losing with a bad management team in place that does not draft well, makes you a loser. The Jazz are a well run organization, and have been very good at high draft picks. Look at our last four top 10 picks (I threw Burks in there to make the Jazz look good): Deron, Hayward, Kanter, Burks.

Now, who can the Jazz model after on that list? Not LA, Miami, Dallas, or Boston. They can't bring in the free agents that those teams can. They need to follow the pattern of OKC, Orl, SA, Cle, Dallas (the old Dallas team) and NJ. All of those teams had a star they drafted (Westbrook/Durant, Howard, Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, LeBron, Harris/Dirk/Howard, Martin/Jefferson.

Then each of those teams added through trades except SA and OKC. OKC did it through a couple of really bad years to get Harden, SA was able to draft amazingly well (luck in some ways, for example, lucky that Lopez couldn't come over right away so Parker fell to them).

Now, where does that leave the Jazz? In a great position. Right now it appears that they may have their star in the making (Kanter). Kanter looks to be a big that you can build around. On top of that, toss in Favors and Hayward and the Jazz have an outstanding core. They need to follow the path of Orl, Cle, Dallas and NJ and add players through trades to put them over the top (as well as get rid of high priced players that will not lead to a title).

If Utah lets Al and Paul walk, they are still in a great position in that they can turn the team over to Kanter and let him develop into "The Guy", they will be in a position to make a trade for an "over-the-top" guy (such as Tyson Chandler, Odom, Allen, Terry, Mourning, Rasheed, Kidd, Mutumbo, Mark Jackson, Jalen Rose were for their teams development into title contenders).

Also, if Kanter develops overnight and the Jazz skyrocket up the standings, great. Fantastic. If they don't, and they end up with a top 5 pick, then great. Fantastic. We are even better.

If you think one season of missing the playoffs is going to turn the Jazz into the Clippers, you are a moron. Sorry. With the young talent we have, one season out of the playoffs only makes us better.

The best thing that can happen to the Jazz is Al and possibly Paul being gone next year (if he gets a deal over 12+ per year).

Kanter is already better than both of them (which is another testament to how horrible of a coach Corbin is, that Kanter still isn't starting over Paul or Favors). Favors isn't far behind.

For the Jazz to be a title contender, we need Hayward to improve a little bit more, have Kanter develop into a star, Favors turn into Chandler or better and turn cap space into a SF.

We aren't that far off what other teams have done...as long as Al and Corbin aren't back. If either one of those two is back, then throw all this out the window and realize the Jazz aren't trying to win titles...just bucks.
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tl/dnr
 
I kinda want to read the rest of this thread just to see Hartsock nail the bitches to the cross. Then again, the whole thing was pretty stupid from the get go.
 
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