Derek Chauvin Murder Trial


Gameface

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Are any of you following it? I'm not following it closely but do read a daily summary.

I'm going in thinking Chauvin is 100% guilty of 2nd degree murder. I'll see if anything the defense presents changes my mind.

Following the comments on KSL.com it seems the argument in favor of Chauvin is basically that, 1 - Floyd was high on fentanyl and meth and was trying to pass counterfeit money, 2 - watch the entire unedited video, Floyd said he couldn't breath even when he was standing up, 3 - coroner said their wasn't strangulation, 4 - you should do whatever police tell you to do otherwise they are allowed to kill you.

I don't find any of that particularly informative in regard to Chauvin being a murderer. They very eager desire to insistently talk about Floyd's drug use is downright offensive. If you are a person who hears that Floyd was on drugs and your reaction is "well I guess that's that, can't convict a cop of murder now." then you are part of the problem imho.

Also, police frequently ask people to do things that they cannot legally force the person to do. They say it in a way that sounds like an order, but it isn't. It's a request. This is a behavior that should be eliminated from law enforcement. They should make requests in a way that makes it clear that they are making a request and they should give orders in a completely different way that makes it clear that they are giving a lawful order. Police that give orders that are not lawful or that they do not have the authority or justification for giving should be punished.

If Floyd was having a hard time breathing standing up they should have gotten him medical attention ASAP. I've read comments from people saying that "criminals" do that all the time to try to avoid being arrested. First, that's not how that works. Second, if an arrest takes longer while you make sure a person isn't about to die that seems okay to me. Not sure why in so many of these violent police interactions the police are in a hurry to escalate the encounter.
 


Beer

Well-Known Member
Are any of you following it? I'm not following it closely but do read a daily summary.

I'm going in thinking Chauvin is 100% guilty of 2nd degree murder. I'll see if anything the defense presents changes my mind.

Following the comments on KSL.com it seems the argument in favor of Chauvin is basically that, 1 - Floyd was high on fentanyl and meth and was trying to pass counterfeit money, 2 - watch the entire unedited video, Floyd said he couldn't breath even when he was standing up, 3 - coroner said their wasn't strangulation, 4 - you should do whatever police tell you to do otherwise they are allowed to kill you.

I don't find any of that particularly informative in regard to Chauvin being a murderer. They very eager desire to insistently talk about Floyd's drug use is downright offensive. If you are a person who hears that Floyd was on drugs and your reaction is "well I guess that's that, can't convict a cop of murder now." then you are part of the problem imho.

Also, police frequently ask people to do things that they cannot legally force the person to do. They say it in a way that sounds like an order, but it isn't. It's a request. This is a behavior that should be eliminated from law enforcement. They should make requests in a way that makes it clear that they are making a request and they should give orders in a completely different way that makes it clear that they are giving a lawful order. Police that give orders that are not lawful or that they do not have the authority or justification for giving should be punished.

If Floyd was having a hard time breathing standing up they should have gotten him medical attention ASAP. I've read comments from people saying that "criminals" do that all the time to try to avoid being arrested. First, that's not how that works. Second, if an arrest takes longer while you make sure a person isn't about to die that seems okay to me. Not sure why in so many of these violent police interactions the police are in a hurry to escalate the encounter.

I'll bite and play devils advocate.

1. I haven't seen the entire video but apparently he was saying he couldn't breathe in the back of the police car, while he was standing up outside of the police car, and more famously while his neck was being knelt on. I think that is pretty relevant information.

2. If the cause of death is a heart attack, and not linked to airway being cut off, broken neck, etc .... then that is another problem for the prosecution

Completely agree his past drug use being irrelevant. His drug use at the time is very relevant though.

Seems like 3rd degree or manslaughter or more likely outcomes.
 

Gameface

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I'll bite and play devils advocate.

1. I haven't seen the entire video but apparently he was saying he couldn't breathe in the back of the police car, while he was standing up outside of the police car, and more famously while his neck was being knelt on. I think that is pretty relevant information.

2. If the cause of death is a heart attack, and not linked to airway being cut off, broken neck, etc .... then that is another problem for the prosecution

Completely agree his past drug use being irrelevant. His drug use at the time is very relevant though.

Seems like 3rd degree or manslaughter or more likely outcomes.
If a person claims to be having trouble breathing why not take that seriously? Is the fact that he said it multiple times somehow proof that it wasn't true?

The cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest, which is a type of heart attack. I'm not a doctor or even very knowledgeable about medicine/biology/etc. but his death was ruled a homicide and as I understand it was not a lack of air that the knee caused but a lack of blood flow, leading to the "heart attack."

I think in this particular case Floyd's being high is not a factor at all in the critical time frame when Chauvin caused his death. I don't think it's a reasonable argument to say "Well if he hadn't been high I could have kneeled on his neck for 15min no problem, but since he WAS high he died in less than 10 min of me kneeling on his neck." Floyd was not resisting, he was handcuffed and on the ground. There was no need to be on his neck (it was not justified based on the circumstances) and that's the most direct cause of his death.

To me that's 2nd degree murder all day.
 

Beer

Well-Known Member
If a person claims to be having trouble breathing why not take that seriously? Is the fact that he said it multiple times somehow proof that it wasn't true?

The cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest, which is a type of heart attack. I'm not a doctor or even very knowledgeable about medicine/biology/etc. but his death was ruled a homicide and as I understand it was not a lack of air that the knee caused but a lack of blood flow, leading to the "heart attack."

I think in this particular case Floyd's being high is not a factor at all in the critical time frame when Chauvin caused his death. I don't think it's a reasonable argument to say "Well if he hadn't been high I could have kneeled on his neck for 15min no problem, but since he WAS high he died in less than 10 min of me kneeling on his neck." Floyd was not resisting, he was handcuffed and on the ground. There was no need to be on his neck (it was not justified based on the circumstances) and that's the most direct cause of his death.

To me that's 2nd degree murder all day.

Agreed, that if someone says they aren't breathing police should call. paramedics. Completely agree. Not sure if that amounts to murder though.

I'm not doctor either so I can't really have too strong of an opinion on that aspect. Heart attack I assume could certainly be caused by lack of bloodflow or whatever was going on with kneeling on his neck, proving that seems like it would be tough though. I'm not into "possibly might have been a factor" in terms of convictions though.

I don't think him being high is necessarily relevant, but if he was under the influence of drugs that could have reasonably played a factor in his untimely death either from the amount taken or side effects than that is relevant.

I think outside of political posturing they are going to have a hard time proving anything outside of manslaughter. But who knows, OJ got off so anything could happen.
 

Ferguson_Mellochill

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The defense will likely try to assert that Chauvin was following normal procedure to subdue a suspect who is resisting or attempting to flee (hence the reason why other officers allowed everything to transpire without intervening). Then the defense will try to assert that Floyd's death was accidental. This latter point is where the toxicology report may become relevant. At a glance, the case looks like it could be similar to the Eric Garner case a few years ago in New York.

If that doesn't work, the defense may assert that the jury was tainted by prejudice due to the public outrage surrounding the trial.

The prosecutor likely needs to establish that Chauvin had some level of intent to kill George Floyd in order to get 2nd-degree murder to stick. However, it appears that the charge is 2nd-degree "unintentional" murder. So I'm not sure what the requirements for that are.
 

Gameface

IT'S TIME TO GET YOUR GAMEFACE ON!
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The defense will likely try to assert that Chauvin was following normal procedure to subdue a suspect who is resisting or attempting to flee (hence the reason why other officers allowed everything to transpire without intervening). Then the defense will try to assert that Floyd's death was accidental. This latter point is where the toxicology report may become relevant. At a glance, the case looks like it could be similar to the Eric Garner case a few years ago in New York.

If that doesn't work, the defense may assert that the jury was tainted by prejudice due to the public outrage surrounding the trial.

The prosecutor likely needs to establish that Chauvin had some level of intent to kill George Floyd in order to get 2nd-degree murder to stick. However, it appears that the charge is 2nd-degree "unintentional" murder. So I'm not sure what the requirements for that are.
I think from what I've read about the case that 2nd degree unintentional means that he acted in a way that he could have or should have known might lead to the death of a person.
 

homeytennis

Well-Known Member
I haven't followed it that closely either but Floyd had significant coronary artery disease, smoked, used alcohol, and was high on meth and fentanyl and appeared to be in a delirious state when arrested. Plus the cop was using an approved measure (at that time) makes it a heavy lift for the prosecution if the jurors follow the law.
 

Eenie-Meenie

Well-Known Member
I can see from the comments that people have not been watching the trial. I have, not all, but a lot of it. Today was especially riveting because they showed what happened before the police got him on the ground. They also showed the people who had gathered shouting at the police. If I were there, I know I would've been one of them; I might've ended up getting shot trying to stop them, it was so brutal.

But let me describe what happened. The police were called because the mgr of the store asked the cashier to call them because of the fake $20 bill.

Two policemen approached George who was sitting in his car in the driver's seat. One had his gun drawn while the other cop said, I kid you not, "Get your f'n hands off the steering wheel!" And then he let fly a volley of f-bombs that would've embarrassed Jerry Sloan. It was outrageous and brutal how they handled him then and when they got him out of the car. They were like animals with no regard for George's humanity. It made me surge with anger just watching it. I couldn't believe police officers would act like this. It was nothing like what you see on Cops or anything I ever experienced. Let's just say outrageous is an understatement and underscores why we need serious police reform. So even before they got George on the ground, there was some serious brutality occurring.

At least two people who have testified that I saw have started crying. It was heart-wrenching to watch and made me feel like Chauvin should be executed on the spot. This is something we as a nation need to rally together against, to galvanize an attack on racism, to root it out of law enforcement, to make every police officer undergo a psychological evaluation to see if they have anger issues or problems with the races of others -- and thereafter everyone hired to be a police officer should be required to undergo this. This is serious stuff and we have a responsibility to pay attention to this trial, and use it as motivation to confront the problem of racism and police brutality.

To conclude, it shook me to watch these videos but we need to watch them because if we ignore them, we will not be able to solve these problems. In fact, because of Der Fuhrer Trump's encouragement, they have become worse.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
I haven't followed it that closely either but Floyd had significant coronary artery disease, smoked, used alcohol, and was high on meth and fentanyl and appeared to be in a delirious state when arrested. Plus the cop was using an approved measure (at that time) makes it a heavy lift for the prosecution if the jurors follow the law.
I don’t practice law, but I highly doubt putting a knee to a man’s neck for 9 mins is an “approved measure.”

Watching the Floyd video and the subsequent ******** PDs across the land pulled over the summer completely convinced me that we need strong reform and we need it now. We need to crunch the police Union as they’re the only Union in the country supported by both political parties and cannot be held accountable to anyone (no prosecutor or politician wants to mess with them). As a result, theyve outgrown their usefulness. Anyone remember this? Remember, the Union scrambled to defend this:
Applauded:

next time you see educators and their union rushing to defend an educator for knocking over a student so hard he bleeds from his head, tell me.
 
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The Thriller

Well-Known Member
I thought the off duty EMT’s testimony was compelling. Start with this video and go down. If this doesn’t tug at your heart strings then you have no heart

 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
The jury is caught in a real quandary. I haven’t followed this case as closely as I normally follow these cases. But could you imagine being on the jury? The pressure they have? I think the jury is probably under tremendous pressure to lower the boom. If they don’t, we might see unprecedented civic unrest nationwide. Who wants that on their conscience?
 
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