Wait, so are you agreeing or something?
Derrick Favors "terrible" Offensive Game
- Thread starter b_line
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Wait, so are you agreeing or something?
Farmer.Tan
Well-Known Member
While it may be true that Favors' offensive game is not yet polished, his defense is light years ahead of Big Al's.
He has issues right now with turnovers and fouls, but those things will come with experience.
Even though big Al may be "better" than Favors on offense, the offense is worse with Al in there than Favors. Al stagnates the offense. Favors works within it.
He has issues right now with turnovers and fouls, but those things will come with experience.
Even though big Al may be "better" than Favors on offense, the offense is worse with Al in there than Favors. Al stagnates the offense. Favors works within it.
Weezur
Well-Known Member
Yeah Favors going one on one is ugly. It's either a turnover, a clunk, or a foul.
All he needs is a one-dribble to the middle hook shot as a go to move. Kanter's got it and it's easy enough. Don't see why Favors can't do it. It's not like you need to be athletic to succeed in the post- just need to be big which he is.
b_line
Well-Known Member
Now that's just ridiculous. Al only has an estimated WARP score (wins above replacement player) of 2.10. With favors there in his place we would be at least as good and probably better due to defensive improvement of the whole team. They wouldn't have to cover for mr no lateral movement al Jefferson.
The only thing al does is make two percent more of his shots than favors. He doesn't even go to the line. He doesn't really pass. I guess he doesn't really turn the ball over but he is a black hole.
Very true. And a big thing that many people don't recognize is how often Favors gets to the rim. Yes his outside shot could use some work. But everyone saying his back to the basket game is terrible. I am not buying that. Yes it could improve. But how many times with his back to the basket does he take shot near the rim that don't go in? Someone should start counting. Cause in time, those will begin to fall and when they do watch out. Him and Kanter on the same team at the same time. Madness!
b_line
Well-Known Member
Ok, well points per shot are a very important stat in the nba. It takes efficiency to be a good offensive player. Just because Al has moves and footwork and scoring and whatever else, does NOT mean he is a good offensive player. He is a bad player all around. The stats of his points per shot prove that on offense, and his horrendous defense proves it as well. Favors can be a better offensive player than Al just because he gets to the line and gets offensive rebounds. Give him possessions and run plays for him that suit him, and I guarantee he will be a better offensive player than Al. Will he score more? If he gets the touches, he might. But that is not the thing that matters. His offensive efficiency is what matters. If you want to talk about my relationship to statistics, then do some damn research first. Look at those numbers and tell me Al Jefferson is an efficient offensive player. Is he more efficient with the ball than Favors? If he is, then the only reason he is right now is because of Favors turnovers. Stats are not about an eye test. Favors offense is only pretty when you look at the pick and roll and the putback. Al LOOKS good on offense, but he is actually detrimental to the team.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
I really don't think you'll find an audience for this kinda stuff anymore. Maybe 2 years ago.
b_line
Well-Known Member
So why dont you tell is in your all knowing statistical mind why you say big al needs to go? seriously, what stat is more pertinent than Al's efficiency at this point in relation to the makeup of this team? The reason we have to start crappy vets is because they complement al. The reason we can't play our best players is because we have to have Al taking 16 shots per game, and only averaging 16 points. That is inefficiency at its best. You can not be a great team on a consistent level playing like that. If you are going to tell me that I don't know the stats, then you start saying something, or just keep being a douche. Whatever.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
We run an offense built for a guy like Al or Kanter. With Favors we should be running a **** load of pnr and flex. Simply put I don't believe the entire problem with Favors' game is all on him.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Everybody on this site already ****ing knows this, bro. Like, deeply 'n ****.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Points per shot is a terrible statistic, as shooting fouls aren't counted as possessions (neither are turnovers). Using true shooting percentage is much better than points per shot. Better still, take a look at the mysynergysports.com stats, which correct for the problem of treating all shots equally (a player who creates through pick and rolls, isos and post-ups shouldn't be measured against someone who gets easy put-backs, dump-offs, spot-ups, etc.).
Al is a much better scorer than Favors. It's not close at all (no matter how important you think shot creation is).
b_line
Well-Known Member
Oh. Cool. I guess I should get that from everyone but cakar bashing on al. Sometimes I am not that quick.
b_line
Well-Known Member
This.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Great point. Last night I tweeted that Derrick Favors was already Utah’s best low-post passer and somebody pointed out his turnovers – but most of Favors’ TO issues don’t come from low-post passing - they come from ball-handling and screen-rolls when the defense rotates quickly. Boozer was phenomenal at rolling/slipping, taking one dribble and hitting the dive-man with a little left-hand shovel pass. Favors often tries to make that pass but is unable to execute (in fairness to him the other big often isn't ready to receive the pass).
The other area that could help minimize Favors turnovers (aside from obviously improving court-awareness) is if the Jazz run more structured post-ups for him. Currently most of his post-ups come from a variety of sets (such as when the initial look isn’t there off a pin-down, we simply look to dump it inside) so the timing and weakside spacing is never consistent.
The post-feeder needs to throw the ball into him then run through – that negates the initial dig and allows him to go quickly to the middle before the help-defense can rotate. Running more of Utah's traditional cross-screen action, throwing the ball in and then running through –would give Favors more of a comfort zone knowing where his teammates are and where the help-defense will likely be coming from when he puts it on the floor – which is a big source of his TO’s.
Favors doesn't need to be a 15-20 point low-post scorer. His defensive presence and rebounding alone make him an asset - and his skillset as-is gives him enough offensive value to the point he isn't anywhere close to being an offensive liability the way an Ostertag or Fesenko was at times. I have no doubt he can be an efficient offensive player who gets to the line alot just with his athletic ability and somewhat un-polished skillset.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Yes. When a player draws a shooting foul, he also burns a possession, so points per fga rewards players who draw fouls too much (unless you think a shooting foul is worth as much as an extra possession...which obviously isn't the case).
For example:
Player 1 goes 4/7 from the floor, scores 8 points and commits zero turnovers.
Player 2 goes 2/5 from the floor, 2/4 from the line and commits 1 turnover.
Player 1 has scored 8 points on 7 possessions (1.14 points per possession). His points per shot is 1.14.
Player 2 has scored 6 points on 8 possessions (0.75 points per possession). His points per shot is 1.2.
Even though player 1 has scored more than 50% more points per possession than player 2, player 2's points per shot is higher than player 1's.
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b_line
Well-Known Member
Well if its points over all field goals attempted, then it heavily favors those who take and make more free throws right? Are you saying that players who get to the line are bad because you would rather them have miss the bucket at the off chance of an offensive rebound? Not sure I am getting what you are saying. To me, drawing a shooting foul is a great thing, especially if there is a chance that you will make the bucket.
For example: a shooting foul for an average free throw shooter means that the team has about a 70% chance at two points. If they shoot a field goal with no foul, the chance is a about 48% that they will get two points.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Read my edited post above. If you still can't understand, it's probably not worth discussing any further.
I'm obviously not saying that drawing fouls isn't valuable. After shooting free throws, however, the opposing team generally gets the ball. The points scored off the free throws required the scoring team to use a possession. Points per shot doesn't count those possessions. It's a terrible stat. Just awful.
The point of the game is to outscore your opponent, not to draw fouls.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Favors has been terrible in pick and rolls this season. He is last among the Jazz's 4 bigs in points per possession as the P&R roll man:
Al: 1.04 PPP
Paul: 0.98 PPP
Enes: 0.98 PPP
Derrick: 0.82 PPP