Donald Trump

[Gameface]

I know several families who have lost members due to overdose. I'm not in favor of anything that makes hard core drugs more accessible if that's what you're proposing. I am in favor of steps that make them less accessible.

Yeah, so we disagree.

 

[gandalfe]

I know several families who have lost members due to overdose. I'm not in favor of anything that makes hard core drugs more accessible if that's what you're proposing. I am in favor of steps that make them less accessible.

I assume you have some steps in mind? I mean, obviously, the war on drugs currently is a miserable joke of a failure, and anything that is just another iteration of the same type of steps is probably doomed to the same type of horrendous consequences.

As for building a wall... IT WON'T WORK. What you have to do is change the circumstances that make people want to come over, to risk incarceration and whatnot. Bring Mexico up instead of bringing America down. And, honestly illegal immigration numbers are down significantly over the last decade, at least according to the latest numbers I have seen.

 

[♪alt13]

I know several families who have lost members due to overdose. I'm not in favor of anything that makes hard core drugs more accessible if that's what you're proposing. I am in favor of steps that make them less accessible.

Doesn't the fact that smoking cigarettes is in decline while heroin addiction is skyrocketing give you some pause? Addiction is an affliction to be treated by doctors not punished by prison wardens. The reality is that you cannot hope to attack addiction on the supply side. We have tried. It has not, does not, will not work.

 

[fishonjazz]

I know several families who have lost members due to overdose. I'm not in favor of anything that makes hard core drugs more accessible if that's what you're proposing. I am in favor of steps that make them less accessible.

Did those people overdose while the war on drugs was still going on? Did the war on drugs prevent them from overdosing?

Maybe if the war on drugs was not in place there would have been more education about drugs and more treatment options available for those addicted and those people would not have died.
Regardless it's impossible to stop overdoses all together whether drugs are legal or illegal but maybe we can stop the cartel murders. I think if there is a way to stop some ruthless killers from filling the ground with bodies of innocent victims then we should give it a try. But that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 848]

P.S. Count me among the crowd who is sick and tired of the "nuanced" argument. "Nuance" is really a way for the PC crowd to believe that their convoluted view of the world is proof of their superior intelligence. I believe in common sense.

Yikes.


Well. Here's what happens when posters consider nuance:

Did those people overdose while the war on drugs was still going on? Did the war on drugs prevent them from overdosing?

Maybe if the war on drugs was not in place there would have been more education about drugs and more treatment options available for those addicted and those people would not have died.
Regardless it's impossible to stop overdoses all together whether drugs are legal or illegal but maybe we can stop the cartel murders. I think if there is a way to stop some ruthless killers from filling the ground with bodies of innocent victims then we should give it a try. But that's just me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Doesn't the fact that smoking cigarettes is in decline while heroin addiction is skyrocketing give you some pause? Addiction is an affliction to be treated by doctors not punished by prison wardens. The reality is that you cannot hope to attack addiction on the supply side. We have tried. It has not, does not, will not work.

I assume you have some steps in mind? I mean, obviously, the war on drugs currently is a miserable joke of a failure, and anything that is just another iteration of the same type of steps is probably doomed to the same type of horrendous consequences.

As for building a wall... IT WON'T WORK. What you have to do is change the circumstances that make people want to come over, to risk incarceration and whatnot. Bring Mexico up instead of bringing America down. And, honestly illegal immigration numbers are down significantly over the last decade, at least according to the latest numbers I have seen.

Notice how every single one of your points is refuted. The wall won't help ****, drug regulations won't address drug abuse in any sense, and Trump's rah-rah policies aren't long-term fixes.

This is all 'nuanced' thinking. To have a nuanced view is to dive deep into policy and actually consider the pros & cons-- as opposed to making face-value "common sense judgements".

As long as those on the right-wing adopt this anti-intelligentsia attitude, you will continue to lose supporters. Reminds me of that time Colbert joked to GWB's face about facts having "a very liberal bias"


EDIT: and the posters who are disagreeing with you aren't even all left-wing. That's the best part. I sure am. Alt and Gameface have both talked about libertarianism to varying levels of support since they've started posting here.

 

[Stoked]

Before we build what will be an ineffective wall to bolster an ineffective immigration policy maybe we could change our immigration laws to allow the majority of law abiding people who want to be here into our country and eliminate the need to control the boarder.

I talked with a farmer recently who had just learned that his employee (an illegal immigrant) had been murdered by a cartel for refusing to carry drugs across the border. Recently a mass grave was discovered in Mexico, presumably filled with people similar to the farmer's employee. What sort of immigration law do you believe would solve this type of problem?

None. I believe ending the drug war will solve those problems.

I know several families who have lost members due to overdose. I'm not in favor of anything that makes hard core drugs more accessible if that's what you're proposing. I am in favor of steps that make them less accessible.

Yeah, so we disagree.

I'm somewhere between you two. I think you need to secure the border. period. But I also think GF has solid points about the war on drugs and immigration. SMart reforms like that will go a long ways towards securing the border. I support those ideas but we still need to know and control what flows over our borders. Both ways, both borders.

Edit: Not saying that securing the border can only be done with a wall. Just that it needs to be controlled.

 

[NAOS]

prohibition policies have never made drugs less accessible

EDIT: they make them harder to find than simply walking down to the corner market, but the flow of goods has not slowed. Prohibition has also caused the strength of substances to skyrocket. If you care about the "drug problem", then you should be in support of ending prohibition. If that doesn't make common sense to you, then **** your common sense and do some research.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Yikes.


Well. Here's what happens when posters consider nuance:







Notice how every single one of your points is refuted. The wall won't help ****, drug regulations won't address drug abuse in any sense, and Trump's rah-rah policies aren't long-term fixes.

This is all 'nuanced' thinking. To have a nuanced view is to dive deep into policy and actually consider the pros & cons-- as opposed to making face-value "common sense judgements".

As long as those on the right-wing adopt this anti-intelligentsia attitude, you will continue to lose supporters. Reminds me of that time Colbert joked to GWB's face about facts having "a very liberal bias"


EDIT: and the posters who are disagreeing with you aren't even all left-wing. That's the best part. I sure am. Alt and Gameface have both talked about libertarianism to varying levels of support since they've started posting here.

The fact that I disagree with you or others on an issue does not make me wrong. I appreciate the debate. It might result in changing my mind. The evidence I've seen in my own life does not lead me to believe that legalizing drugs will solve the problem, though. I think the opposite would be the case. I believe it would be like opening Pandora's Box. I certainly hope I'm wrong because I believe that eventually those who are for complete legalization are going to get their wish.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I'm somewhere between you two. I think you need to secure the border. period. But I also think GF has solid points about the war on drugs and immigration. SMart reforms like that will go a long ways towards securing the border. I support those ideas but we still need to know and control what flows over our borders. Both ways, both borders.

Edit: Not saying that securing the border can only be done with a wall. Just that it needs to be controlled.

What alternative method of border control do you propose?

 

[Stoked]

What alternative method of border control do you propose?

Increasing the funding, training of border patrol agents. Also increasing the number of agents. More cameras, state funding from the feds.

Having Mexico and Canada have some skin in the game. Make it in their best interest to discourage illegal immigration and smuggling across the border. Do this by attaching foreign aid to it.

Granting amnesty to those already here with out additional hard crimes (murder, theft, assault...). Improving the flow of immigrants. The process is overly lengthy and cumbersome and leads to illegal immigration s the process and cost are prohibitive.

Legalize drugs and that will further reduce the need to smuggle as the can straight up transport across the border now and lead to jobs in the states actually.

Just real fast answers for an internet debate.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

The fact that I disagree with you or others on an issue does not make me wrong. I appreciate the debate. It might result in changing my mind. The evidence I've seen in my own life does not lead me to believe that legalizing drugs will solve the problem, though. I think the opposite would be the case. I believe it would be like opening Pandora's Box. I certainly hope I'm wrong because I believe that eventually those who are for complete legalization are going to get their wish.

BTW, I've seen no evidence that our northern border is a problem. Have you? I've spent a lot of time in Mexico and Canada (not just tourist destinations). For five years I worked for a company that sent me to Mexico on a marketing blitz every summer. I have relatives in Canada and I lived there for 6 months. I've talked to Mexican citizens about the corruption of their government. I've never heard anything similar from Canadians. Mexico is a country with overwhelming resources. It has the potential to be an economic powerhouse, but unfortunately for the Mexican citizens they've always been handicapped by government corruption. If Mexico ever lives up to its potential there would be no need for extra security on that border.

 

[Stoked]

BTW, I've seen no evidence that our northern border is a problem. Have you? I've spent a lot of time in Mexico and Canada (not just tourist destinations). For five years I worked for a company that sent me to Mexico on a marketing blitz every summer. I have relatives in Canada and I lived there for 6 months. I've talked to Mexican citizens about the corruption of their government. I've never heard anything similar from Canadians. Mexico is a country with overwhelming resources. It has the potential to be an economic powerhouse, but unfortunately for the Mexican citizens they've always been handicapped by government corruption. If Mexico ever lives up to its potential there would be no need for extra security on that border.

Yet another way to help secure the border. A more prosperous Mexico is good for America. We can start by terminating programs and the promotion of programs like Fast and Furious.

 

[Gameface]

The fact that I disagree with you or others on an issue does not make me wrong. I appreciate the debate. It might result in changing my mind. The evidence I've seen in my own life does not lead me to believe that legalizing drugs will solve the problem, though. I think the opposite would be the case. I believe it would be like opening Pandora's Box. I certainly hope I'm wrong because I believe that eventually those who are for complete legalization are going to get their wish.

There are places that have ended drug prohibition. It doesn't solve the drug problem, it solves the drug prohibition problem which has devastating effects just like drug addiction does. But the drug problem doesn't explode after prohibition.

In the U.S., before alcohol prohibition, most people who drank drank either beer or wine. During and for a considerable time after prohibition hard liquor dominated. Think about that.

Also think about the violent organized crime organizations that sprang up in response to prohibition, and the effect they had on corruption in the U.S., and the lives lost not from alcohol, which killed people before, during and after prohibition, but at the hands of gangsters and corrupt police and other officials.

Prohibition is just as destructive as drug addiction. Let's end half of the destructiveness and start dealing with the the other half in a more effective way.

 

[♪alt13]

What alternative method of border control do you propose?

All Mexicans should be able to come and go as they please. I know it seems to be hard for Americans to believe but the vast majority of Mexicans aren't criminals. Open the border don't close it. Legalize drugs and the cartels go away. Honestly I'm tired of the obsession over protecting an imaginary line.

 

[fishonjazz]

There are places that have ended drug prohibition. It doesn't solve the drug problem, it solves the drug prohibition problem



Prohibition is just as destructive as drug addiction. Let's end half of the destructiveness and start dealing with the the other half in a more effective way.

This.
Legalization won't eliminate the drug abuse problem.
But the prohibition problem (unnecessary lives being ruined and negatively affected by incarceration, court costs, prison costs, police force costs, fines, etc) could be dealt with.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Let's build a huge wall made of bales of weed and just see what happens.

Shall we vote?

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

All Mexicans should be able to come and go as they please. I know it seems to be hard for Americans to believe but the vast majority of Mexicans aren't criminals. Open the border don't close it. Legalize drugs and the cartels go away. Honestly I'm tired of the obsession over protecting an imaginary line.

We pay taxes for services that are provided on one side of this imaginary line. We abide by laws that are enforced on one side of the line as well. I agree with Stoked when he says that one of the solutions is a better government in Mexico, but we can't do anything about that. Of course that would be the best solution, though. As long as Mexico is led by a regime that caters to crime cartels the border is going to be a problem.

 

[NAOS]

I agree with Stoked when he says that one of the solutions is a better government in Mexico, but we can't do anything about that.

Nothing?

Did NAFTA do nothing?
Have our Prohibitionist drug policies done nothing?

 

[Dr. Jones]

We should just buy Mexico for a ham sandwich, open the doors for mass immigration to America, we all move south of the border under cloak of darkness, then build wall.

Boom. Better weather.

 

[♪alt13]

We pay taxes for services that are provided on one side of this imaginary line.

Mexicans pay US taxes.
https://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

We abide by laws that are enforced on one side of the line as well.

Mexicans are subject to US law when in the US.

I agree with Stoked when he says that one of the solutions is a better government in Mexico, but we can't do anything about that. Of course that would be the best solution, though. As long as Mexico is led by a regime that caters to crime cartels the border is going to be a problem.

As long as Americans keep buying their drugs from crime cartels instead of corporations Mexico will have a cartel problem.