Elijah Millsap: Lindsey in exit interview: “if u say one more word, I’ll cut your Black *** and send you back to Louisiana”.

[candrew]

DL and Elijah both seem like decent good men
This can be patched up by a private face to face meeting
The longer this goes on the worse things may become
DL needs to get on a plane and fly to Elijah ASAP

Then DL would be acting like someone who's guilty.

And he already categorically denied it - that be his job for sure whether he said it or not.

 

[BENTLEY]

Ban cy

This. Long overdue.

 

[LogGrad98]

I think milsap should have reached out to DL directly and squashed it like that.

I think that would have been ideal. But I have dealt with many many situations like this in the workplace, from racial issues to sexual harassment to hostile work environments, you name it, and the key thing we tell people is to let someone know. Anyone. Anyway. Just get the issue in the open so it can be addressed.

I had one woman's mother come in and talk to me about a lead that was supposedly harassing her daughter. Her daughter was maybe 20 and felt very uncomfortable addressing this in any way, largely because we teach people when they are young to despise "tattle-tales" and that bleeds over into the workplace, making addressing these issues much harder.

I am glad EM brought the issue to light in a way he felt comfortable approaching it, it is serious and needs to be addressed.

I am also glad the Jazz has had some pretty swift responses and immediately reached out to the league to instigate an investigation. That is exactly how an organization like this should have responded.

I once had to start an investigation of a supervisor in one of my buildings because of a facebook post that someone brought to me from a previous employee who posted they quit because he kept calling her fat. Key thing is that this gets addressed, that EM feels heard and acknowledged, and that DL is treated as innocent until proven guilty. By the comments on a lot of the tweets there are already people basically calling for his head, which to me is the worst thing about a public outing like this. IF he is shown to have done this, they need to fire him, especially after his public denial. IF it is shown to be a misunderstanding or at worst a he-said/she-said I hope EM can move forward, and I hope DL can salvage his reputation somewhat, although I imagine that damage will take a long time to undo, regardless of the outcome or facts.

No matter what I hope the organization takes this as an opportunity to check the pulse of their employees on issues like this, and educate everyone. In short, to get better as a group.

 

[whatthe]

And there is some reverse prejudice going on here. The twitter-sphere is gleeful because they think DL is some generic Utah Mormon. This is a proxy way of slamming Mormons as racist. If they only knew who they were attacking they would slow down on the hate.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

When I read DL's background, where he came from, who he has become, and then compared it with the comments by his peers and even by Elijah himself, it almost feels like Elijah heard something that wasn't said. It was pretty far out of character for DL based on his life experience.

I am not saying that this happened but... for example. My ears are just fine but sometimes I am a bit DEEF. My wife calls me "NOT THE LYRIC'S KING" because I am convinced that songs say something that they don't. For a decade I sang "Let me go home, like a GLISTER in the Sun". I think I even put Glister in a paper at school when trying to describe a shining object. Later when my wife mocked me for it I decided to show her so I looked it up. When I saw I was dead wrong and that there is no such thing as a GLISTER, I copied and pasted the lyrics to microsoft word, changed the lyrics, printed it out, and showed her. Yeah, I felt dumb but we laugh about it to this day. I think I heard that song hundreds of times and yet I was convinced of what I heard.

Point is, this doesn't match DLs anti-racist history. If it happened, I think he has done more to create a culture of anti-racism around the Jazz and to condemn these things when they happened in the past than most of us have done from our keyboards.

I've never heard of glistering in the sun. My brother thought for years that in the Who Let the Dogs Out song they were barking instead of saying who, who, who, who who. He is a double idiot for thinking that, and also for listening to that song.

And let's be honest, clearly Elton John said hold me closer Tony Danza. He was the boss after all.

 

[One Brow]

Then DL would be acting like someone who's guilty.

And he already categorically denied it - that be his job for sure whether he said it or not.

Or, acting like someone who wants to move forward rather than dwell on guilt.

 

[TheGoldStandard]

I think that would have been ideal. But I have dealt with many many situations like this in the workplace, from racial issues to sexual harassment to hostile work environments, you name it, and the key thing we tell people is to let someone know. Anyone. Anyway. Just get the issue in the open so it can be addressed.

I had one woman's mother come in and talk to me about a lead that was supposedly harassing her daughter. Her daughter was maybe 20 and felt very uncomfortable addressing this in any way, largely because we teach people when they are young to despise "tattle-tales" and that bleeds over into the workplace, making addressing these issues much harder.

I am glad EM brought the issue to light in a way he felt comfortable approaching it, it is serious and needs to be addressed.

I am also glad the Jazz has had some pretty swift responses and immediately reached out to the league to instigate an investigation. That is exactly how an organization like this should have responded.

I once had to start an investigation of a supervisor in one of my buildings because of a facebook post that someone brought to me from a previous employee who posted they quit because he kept calling her fat. Key thing is that this gets addressed, that EM feels heard and acknowledged, and that DL is treated as innocent until proven guilty. By the comments on a lot of the tweets there are already people basically calling for his head, which to me is the worst thing about a public outing like this. IF he is shown to have done this, they need to fire him, especially after his public denial. IF it is shown to be a misunderstanding or at worst a he-said/she-said I hope EM can move forward, and I hope DL can salvage his reputation somewhat, although I imagine that damage will take a long time to undo.

No matter what I hope the organization takes this as an opportunity to check the pulse of their employees on issues like this, and educate everyone. In short, to get better as a group.

In my experience, this usually happens in some form. They tell a fellow co-worker (or here a teammate) or another friend, etc. I'm not saying Millsap is wrong, but waiting six years with no one else remembering when there were two other people in the room does not look super credible.

I think a statement like that would stick with me if I was in the room. My question is what did Millsap say or do in the first place to get chewed out? An end of the bench player should be working the hardest, and being the most appreciative. Don't rock the boat when you are easily replaced.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

I'd agree with you completely, except Elijah made the public statement that he was disappointed DL didn't reach out to him directly. It goes both ways, so if Elijah expected a direct interaction, rather than a public statement, he should have started the process the same way.

This!

 

[LogGrad98]

In my experience, this usually happens in some form. They tell a fellow co-worker (or here a teammate) or another friend, etc. I'm not saying Millsap is wrong, but waiting six years with no one else remembering when there were two other people in the room does not look super credible.

I think a statement like that would stick with me if I was in the room. My question is what did Millsap say or do in the first place to get chewed out? An end of the bench player should be working the hardest, and being the most appreciative. Don't rock the boat when you are easily replaced.

Yeah I have found that most often we get the info in the investigation. The oldest complaint I have dealt with, comparing to EMs 6 year wait, was about 18 months. We still found a pattern of ongoing behavior and the person was terminated. But I have had allegations we could not corroborate and we generally would require the individual to undergo refresher training on things like harassment if needed, but they generally did not result in terminations.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Why would I talk to you, you're the board doormat.

The board Doormat that’s getting more than you so....

 

[framer]

In my experience, this usually happens in some form. They tell a fellow co-worker (or here a teammate) or another friend, etc. I'm not saying Millsap is wrong, but waiting six years with no one else remembering when there were two other people in the room does not look super credible.

I think a statement like that would stick with me if I was in the room. My question is what did Millsap say or do in the first place to get chewed out? An end of the bench player should be working the hardest, and being the most appreciative. Don't rock the boat when you are easily replaced.

And that is the ultimate issue. Elijah has given his former teammates no way to publicly support him in the issue. At this point supporting him would essentially be calling the Jazz front office and their coach liars. This wasn't a "he said/she said," there were several witnesses. There wasn't room left for "teaching" of for creating a better environment because Elijah chose Twitter as his method to air his grievances.

All of the "smoothing" is because his teammates have talked to him and said, "What the Hell?" Obviously, they have probably said the same thing to Lindsey, but he has corroboration, witnesses, and the advantage of not being a flaming racist who people would see saying something like that.

This sucks for Lindsey, but it is probably worse for Elijah. And I feel bad for him because he probably didn't think this through all of the way. I think when he wrote what he did, he may have thought that is what happened. But oftentimes what we "remember" and what happened are not the same.

I read this article a while back and it has really changed the way I feel about some things, especially grudges:

Are memories reliable? Expert explains how they change more than we realise

Even our most treasured memories can gradually change over time.

theconversation.com

 

[416Klawzz]

Has Paul chimed in on this ?

 

[gandalfe]

Has Paul chimed in on this ?

I wouldn't necessarily expect him to. Dennis joined the Jazz organization in 2012, Paul left in 2013, so they knew each other, but only briefly.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

I would be stunned if Elijah hadn't told Paul about the situation if and when it happened. I would like to hear his response.

 

[idiot]

My question is what did Millsap say or do in the first place to get chewed out? An end of the bench player should be working the hardest, and being the most appreciative. Don't rock the boat when you are easily replaced.

I think this is part of the problem at hand. We assume that we're being realistic (within a capitalist [though also a historically and even presently racism-tolerating] system) when we say that those lowest on the totem pole should just not rock the boat. And it's true that there's some individual-survival wisdom in this idea.

But this is terrible advice when the goal is to improve the system or to speak truth with integrity. For historically understandable reasons there are many people of color who refuse to buy into the idea that someone should just kept their head low and appreciate what they get.

(I'm not saying whether or not these feelings applied to Millsap six years ago or at any time since -- since I can't know that -- just trying to make a general point)

 

[idiot]

I don't think the problem is denying it. He could have had the same statement while also showing more concern for the issues at hand. "I categorically deny making that statement. We will reach out to Elijah to address this potential misunderstanding".

Like I was saying before, I think both men believe in their truths. To me it's not really about outing one or the other as a liar. I'm just thinking about how the response comes off to the other players. Rudy, for example, said he was close with Elijah. He's probably going to believe Elijah. How do you think Rudy feels when his friend is called a liar?

We're never going to know the whole truth for sure, but what's most important is that the Jazz make it clear to the players that these concerns are taken seriously and not dismissed so quickly.

While I do agree with you that this might have been a better look in some senses ("let's hear each other out privately as reasonable men"), I think you're overlooking the power dynamics that are (still) at play.

To take an extreme example (that is clearly not exactly parallel, but I hope gives a sense of something of the possible issues at stake), imagine that the charge was that a boss (or former boss) raped an employee. If the boss was confronted by a reporter about the accusation and then said something like, "I don't agree, but I'm going to reach out to the accuser and try to make things right," there would be all kinds of red flags raised about whether the boss was using his power to try to minimize the issue or even use the power differential he still possessed to make the accusation go away or even punish or otherwise regain power over the accuser in some way.

Now racial power dynamics don't play out exactly the same as sexual power dynamics, but I think there are enough parallels in this instance that Lindsey wouldn't necessarily have been better served to have gone the "let me try to make things right with Elijah privately" route. (In fact, I just saw a tweet from Millsap subsequent to his initial statement about the exit interview to the effect that he's less interested in "making things right" than speaking the truth with integrity.)

Whether Millsap intended things to play out like they have (and he might have, though sometimes once actions are taken, they lead in not-fully-anticipated directions), I think given the way the social climate and news media work these days, once the accusation went public it would have been hard for Lindsey and Millsap to just reach out to each other as more or less "equals." Maybe somewhere down the line, they might be able to do so, but probably not at first.

 

[mongoose01]

Again, I think this is very telling that it was a unique, out of character moment and even the accuser is not blaming DL for being racist.

Still not enough info but it feels a little over blown given this tweet post the interview with Elijah himself.

Again, if thats what he said, not good but far from being in character and deserving of a reprimand but a firing would go too far imho.

In fact, I think its an opportunity for Ryan Smith to help push a culture of anti-racism with DL leading the charge.

Still makes me wonder then what is he “shining the light on” with this? That he thinks he had this instance once and only once while with the Jazz? What is the result he is hoping will come from naming DL and publicly making these claims? Seems like he should have just picked up the phone and cleared it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Aldridge: Dennis Lindsey, Elijah Millsap situation once again has Jazz facing question of race

A former Black player says a white executive used racially offensive language to him. Current Black players have praised the organization.

theathletic.com

Good article on Jazz and race relations.

I think it's pretty clear DL is overall good dude. Hopefully he didnt have an unprofessional slip and didnt lie/forget about it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Still makes me wonder then what is he “shining the light on” with this? That he thinks he had this instance once and only once while with the Jazz? What is the result he is hoping will come from naming DL and publicly making these claims? Seems like he should have just picked up the phone and cleared it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It would be shining a light on power dynamics and use of racially charged language in the workplace. It's not just for him, but for any POC who might have experienced a similar interaction with person who has power over their livelihood. I see why he went public. Going private wouldn't help anything. The fact that you are asking that question tells me you don't have the ability to emphasize.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Has Paul chimed in on this ?

Why on Earth would he? He wasnt in the room and I'm pretty sure he only spent a single year under the DL era.

Besides, do you really expect him to go against his brother in any way? His testimony wouldn't really mean much do to the very clear bias he would have.