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ElRoach0; explaining and defending his beliefs(read "The Official 'Ask a Mormon' Thread" first

Just a clarification to throw at ElRoach0.
Mose 4:4
...Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
But to better understand the part in bold.
Doctrine and Covenants 29:36
...for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the ghosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

He was saying to God, to give him his honor/power or that which made him God, and that Lucifer would then be God.

Just bringing it up because it was not mentioned as far as I could see.

One other note that makes me smile, though in all probability unintentional. El means deity. You have an El in front of your name. I will not read into it, but it does make me smile.
 
Science is just the name we give to the systemic pursuit of objective knowledge. I believe in science about as much as I believe in cooking. It isn't something that requires belief. I use science on daily basis to accomplish real and measurable results that anyone can use regardless of their beliefs.

Same here, I use a toaster to make toast, a frying pan to cook eggs, and a microwave to soften butter. The science, the cooking, measurable results you can eat, and I give thanks for the food I've been blessed with... and I also do this daily. I do believe it is a miracle! It's the perfect trifecta of science, cooking, and God. Were we separated at birth?
 
Its true and I agree. However, how can you completely disregaurd commetns from the likes of elbert einstin saying "The more i learn of space and the univers the more he belived in a supreme creator" (paraphrased) The workins of the world and universe are like and amazeing cavas that has been perfectally ocistrated, the earth is one of the only places that can sastain life. its been said the odds of everything working out the way they did on our planet to make everything possible is like 1 in 4 trillion... (also paraphrased.)

I can. Einstein was not a believer of anything you would consider religion, or any theistic version of god/s. He had a vague deistic sentiment, but so what? Newton was super religious, and he's no less brilliant than Einstein. Plenty of other brilliant people were atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. I am not intimidated by an intelligent person having a different view. I am only concerned with what can be reasonably evaluated to be a reasonable explanation. I can't tell you whether the Copenhagen Interpretation is superior to the Polycosmos as a paradigm for quantum mechanics. That information is beyond my ability to judge. But I can evaluate a specific set of beliefs. I graduated from BYU, and I learned quite a bit about Mormonism. Did I ever think for an instant that it might be true? No. And I debated those who disagree endlessly. Sure every religion has an apologetic subsystem that tries to refute the mountains of evidence (or just simple common sense) against that religion. But since I have no emotional attachment to any religious or spiritual discipline, I've always been unmoved by such attempts. Would someone be able to convince you that Zeus created the universe? I feel the same way about your religion, or any other.
 
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Siro I think there is something wonderful about religion and what it teaches.

Mormonism is already much wider spread than given credit for. It will continue to grow and expand as more people join it opens the door for others to come into contact with the religion.

America, Brazil, Mexico, Philippines, Canada, Tonga, Samoa, Chili, Germany, England, Australia... all have the church well established.
 
I can. Einstein was not a believer of anything you would consider religion, or any theistic version of god/s. He had a vague deistic sentiment, but so what? Newton was super religious, and he's no less brilliant than Einstein. Plenty of other brilliant people were atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. I am not intimidated by an intelligent person having a different view. I am only concerned with what can be reasonably evaluated to be a reasonable explanation. I can't tell you whether the Copenhagen Interpretation is superior to the Polycosmos as a paradigm for quantum mechanics. That information is beyond my ability to judge. But I can tell evaluate a specific set of beliefs. I graduated from BYU, and I learned quite a bit about Mormonism. Did I ever think for an instant that it might be true? No. And I debated those who disagree endlessly. Sure every religion has an apologetic subsystem that tries to refute the mountains of evidence (or just simple common sense) against that religion. But since I have no emotional attachment to any religious or spiritual discipline, I've always been unmoved by such attempts. Would someone be able to convince you that Zeus created the universe? I feel the same way about your religion, or any other.

I get it, I hear you.
Personally I think this way of thinking misses half of life's possibilities. There is more to this whole thing around us than being born, living, then dying. There is also much more than using science only to think through things. We learn all the time that what we once thought was true, was not quite right... and both were proven by science... until the next thing. There is more, but you will never discover it if you don't want to. That's cool though, your choice and all of that. Obviously I don't see religion and a belief in God as a waste, or foolish.
It's all good.
 
Its true and I agree. However, how can you completely disregaurd commetns from the likes of elbert einstin saying "The more i learn of space and the univers the more he belived in a supreme creator" (paraphrased)

Highly, highly paraphrased. For Einstein, the creator was more metaphor than being. He referred to beliefs in a Supreme Being as a child-like understanding.
 
I can. Einstein was not a believer of anything you would consider religion, or any theistic version of god/s. He had a vague deistic sentiment, but so what? Newton was super religious, and he's no less brilliant than Einstein. Plenty of other brilliant people were atheist, agnostic, Muslim, Jewish, whatever. I am not intimidated by an intelligent person having a different view. I am only concerned with what can be reasonably evaluated to be a reasonable explanation. I can't tell you whether the Copenhagen Interpretation is superior to the Polycosmos as a paradigm for quantum mechanics. That information is beyond my ability to judge. But I can tell evaluate a specific set of beliefs. I graduated from BYU, and I learned quite a bit about Mormonism. Did I ever think for an instant that it might be true? No. And I debated those who disagree endlessly. Sure every religion has an apologetic subsystem that tries to refute the mountains of evidence (or just simple common sense) against that religion. But since I have no emotional attachment to any religious or spiritual discipline, I've always been unmoved by such attempts. Would someone be able to convince you that Zeus created the universe? I feel the same way about your religion, or any other.

I feel this discussion is void. As I think that all the creation storys have similar voices. Seems like just different twists on the same story, different names of course and some details lost and changed in translation. Hwoever, i feel this just adds more proof to the idea of a supreme creator. We as human beings long to know there is more to this life then just the here and now, this is true. But to see and hear so many stories that have so many similaritys, and from people who had zero conections with eachother for much of the earths history slightly amazes me. But maybe I am just easily ammused. (this is possible).
 
Highly, highly paraphrased. For Einstein, the creator was more metaphor than being. He referred to beliefs in a Supreme Being as a child-like understanding.

I had a feeling this thread would attract you eventually.

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)
 
I've been reading it, but saw no reason to post. Mostly, it's well outside my area of expertise, so far.

Well it gladdens me to know you don't feel you are an expert on everything.. =) I stay away from the gay gun poltic threads most of the time because i feel way outmatched. I currentally am in school studying socialogy, maybe someday i can share my thoughts about some of the the things you have been discussing that seem un-proven or of base. For now i will continue learning the terms and theorys.
 
I get it, I hear you.
Personally I think this way of thinking misses half of life's possibilities. There is more to this whole thing around us than being born, living, then dying. There is also much more than using science only to think through things. We learn all the time that what we once thought was true, was not quite right... and both were proven by science... until the next thing. There is more, but you will never discover it if you don't want to. That's cool though, your choice and all of that. Obviously I don't see religion and a belief in God as a waste, or foolish.
It's all good.

You make two separate points. Let me respond to both.

You say there is more to life than living. And what might that be? Living again after you die? I never understood the claim that religion gives us meaning. If anything, religion devalues life. It is the understanding that we emerged through natural processes, against all odds, that makes our story so striking. If I am to accept Christianity's depressing view, then we're nothing. An all powerful god created us with little effort, put us on one of the trillions of trillions of worlds that he created. He imposed a set of demands on us, that we are to follow blindly OR ELSE! And in return, he promised he'd permit our continued existence unmolested.

On the other hand, I see the universe as dumb matter going down the path that it forged for itself the moment of its inception. And through all the indifferent processes that govern the void that is our home, molecules came together in a way that enabled them to self-replicate, and life was born. A delicate system under continuous assault from an uncomprehending reality, it managed not only to survive, but to give rise to billions upon billions of machines that are as unique from one another as the hand-crafted sculptures of a skilled artist. And those machines lived and died, and from their ruined parts new machines sprung forth. And from that cacophony, our species was born. And that most "insignificant" entity robbed the entire cosmos from its incomprehension. The universe created a mind for itself. And you want me to give up this inheritance and become a slave? I don't think I can do that.

As for the transience of scientific thought. It's incidental to the process. If you truly are looking to understand, then you're going to have to build one paradigm after another, until you find the one that explains all you observe. If science did not grow with our knowledge, then it would not be science at all. The fact is, Newton's approximations turned out not to be a fundamental truth. But that's unimportant. It was the best truth we could come up with given the information we possessed at the time. As the amount of observations that violated Newtonian mechanics grew, the need for new understanding arose. And I hope this continues. That's the whole point.
 
I currentally am in school studying socialogy, maybe someday i can share my thoughts about some of the the things you have been discussing that seem un-proven or of base. For now i will continue learning the terms and theorys.

Even while you're learning, if you want to mention some of it to your teachers, and return with any corrections, I would welcome it.
 
You make two separate points. Let me respond to both.

You say there is more to life than living. And what might that be? Living again after you die? I never understood the claim that religion gives us meaning. If anything, religion devalues life. It is the understanding that we emerged through natural processes, against all odds, that makes our story so striking. If I am to accept Christianity's depressing view, then we're nothing. An all powerful god created us with little effort, put us on one of the trillions of trillions of worlds that he created. He imposed a set of demands on us, that we are to follow blindly OR ELSE! And in return, he promised he'd permit our continued existence unmolested.
The view that you existed before birth on this earth, and that your existence will continue after death on this earth does not devalue life at all. The people that will devalue life will do so with or without this knowledge. If anything it gives hope, perspective, and a goal.
Your take on this also lets me know you really have a limited understanding of who God is, what he asks us to do, how we can find out for ourselves, and what the consequences of our actions are. There were no demands, but commandments we could choose to follow. We are asked to come and see and to prove out what he asks us to do and there is no blindly following although at times there will be blind steps here and there, but they are only for short distances. There is no OR ELSE! He has given commandments. Attached to each law there are consequences. We can choose to follow the law, or not follow the law... but we do not get to choose the consequence. In return of us choosing to follow him and do our best (etc... long story) we will receive our just reward and most likely we will understand and accept it as correct. This whole permit our continued existence unmolested... not sure where you are going with that.

On the other hand, I see the universe as dumb matter going down the path that it forged for itself the moment of its inception. And through all the indifferent processes that govern the void that is our home, molecules came together in a way that enabled them to self-replicate, and life was born. A delicate system under continuous assault from an uncomprehending reality, it managed not only to survive, but to give rise to billions upon billions of machines that are as unique from one another as the hand-crafted sculptures of a skilled artist. And those machines lived and died, and from their ruined parts new machines sprung forth. And from that cacophony, our species was born. And that most "insignificant" entity robbed the entire cosmos from its incomprehension. The universe created a mind for itself. And you want me to give up this inheritance and become a slave? I don't think I can do that.

What is your inheritance? To die and be gone? Not sure I get that. I don't get your idea of becoming a slave. You think believing in God and choosing to follow him makes you a slave? I don't think so. Being forced to follow someone or something would be closer to slavery.

Let me put this into a basketball scenario. A basketball coach has a team, there are various talent levels on this team as well as heights, weights, builds, athleticism and brains. This coach puts his team through drills, conditioning, practice, and all that over and over and over. They practice drills. They practice plays, they practice full court press, they practice press break, they practice layups, they practice free throws, they practice multiple positions in each of the plays, they practice in bounds plays from under the basket, from the sidelines. They practice plays at the end of games. They find out in practice who can do what, and who can run the plays, and which five run best as starters, and who the best players off the bench are. They figure a lot of things out and try to get them down. Why? When it's game time, who is the coach going to put in? The coach will first put in the players that listen do his direction, and that can run his plays. It would be nice if all players got the buy in of his schemes and game plans. That is not always the case. Some players just don't believe in the coach, won't listen to him, and don't buy in to his game plan. They might do their own thing, and argue about things.

Imagine that God is the coach. He knows everything, knows the opposition backwards and forward. He knows his team like the back of his hand. Let's just say for example we are his team, and this life is our practice time. He will see what talents and abilities we have, will see our conditioning to know how many minutes he can play us. Most of all he will see if we know the plays, and if we have bought in to his game plan. He wants to see who can handle playing in a game time situation, and he wants to see who can start, and who can come off the bench, and even who does not buy into his game plan and might dnp if they continually choose to fight him and his game plan.

Not a perfect "parable" but passable.

As for the transience of scientific thought. It's incidental to the process. If you truly are looking to understand, then you're going to have to build one paradigm after another, until you find the one that explains all you observe. If science did not grow with our knowledge, then it would not be science at all. The fact is, Newton's approximations turned out not to be a fundamental truth. But that's unimportant. It was the best truth we could come up with given the information we possessed at the time. As the amount of observations that violated Newtonian mechanics grew, the need for new understanding arose. And I hope this continues. That's the whole point.

I have no issues with science, as a part of life, but not the have all be all. It is a good thing, and leads to good things, but it is not the everything that leads to everything. It is a branch of a tree, but is not the whole tree.
 
The view that you existed before birth on this earth, and that your existence will continue after death on this earth does not devalue life at all. The people that will devalue life will do so with or without this knowledge. If anything it gives hope, perspective, and a goal.
Your take on this also lets me know you really have a limited understanding of who God is, what he asks us to do, how we can find out for ourselves, and what the consequences of our actions are. There were no demands, but commandments we could choose to follow. We are asked to come and see and to prove out what he asks us to do and there is no blindly following although at times there will be blind steps here and there, but they are only for short distances. There is no OR ELSE! He has given commandments. Attached to each law there are consequences. We can choose to follow the law, or not follow the law... but we do not get to choose the consequence. In return of us choosing to follow him and do our best (etc... long story) we will receive our just reward and most likely we will understand and accept it as correct. This whole permit our continued existence unmolested... not sure where you are going with that.

I gave the generic Christian principle of reward and punishment as an example. It wasn't intended to be about Mormonism. I'm not going to debate specific doctrines because it's pointless. A Muslim poster will jump in and explain how my response to Mormonism doesn't apply to HIS religion. And if I respond to that, well, you get the idea. There's just so much time in the day.

But what I said applies to your belief, regardless of how you put. There is no difference in demanding a certain behavior while threatening those who disagree, and your version about law and consequences. You're saying precisely the same thing. There's an outside agent making grand claims about his accomplishments. He refuses to give even the slightest proof for his existence (and I do understand the idea of faith. All religions use it to "prove" their religion is the one worth following). And he promises rewards for those who follow (better placement in the afterlife). In other words, we're so very small. At least in comparison to the omniscient master who has absolute power over our destiny FOR ALL ETERNITY. Yeah, I think I'll pass.

What is your inheritance? To die and be gone? Not sure I get that. I don't get your idea of becoming a slave. You think believing in God and choosing to follow him makes you a slave? I don't think so. Being forced to follow someone or something would be closer to slavery.

Let me put this into a basketball scenario. A basketball coach has a team, there are various talent levels on this team as well as heights, weights, builds, athleticism and brains. This coach puts his team through drills, conditioning, practice, and all that over and over and over. They practice drills. They practice plays, they practice full court press, they practice press break, they practice layups, they practice free throws, they practice multiple positions in each of the plays, they practice in bounds plays from under the basket, from the sidelines. They practice plays at the end of games. They find out in practice who can do what, and who can run the plays, and which five run best as starters, and who the best players off the bench are. They figure a lot of things out and try to get them down. Why? When it's game time, who is the coach going to put in? The coach will first put in the players that listen do his direction, and that can run his plays. It would be nice if all players got the buy in of his schemes and game plans. That is not always the case. Some players just don't believe in the coach, won't listen to him, and don't buy in to his game plan. They might do their own thing, and argue about things.

Imagine that God is the coach. He knows everything, knows the opposition backwards and forward. He knows his team like the back of his hand. Let's just say for example we are his team, and this life is our practice time. He will see what talents and abilities we have, will see our conditioning to know how many minutes he can play us. Most of all he will see if we know the plays, and if we have bought in to his game plan. He wants to see who can handle playing in a game time situation, and he wants to see who can start, and who can come off the bench, and even who does not buy into his game plan and might dnp if they continually choose to fight him and his game plan.

My inheritance as the most capable system in all of creation of course! Not me personally, mind you. But intelligent life in general (covering my *** in case there are other civilizations out there). To me, there's dumb energy and matter extending for trillions of miles in all directions. And then there's us. We created all gods in our image because we are the closest thing to gods that the universe ever managed to come up with. And I'd very much like to use this inheritance to create the best possible existence that can be created.

If you're asking about me personally, then yes, I will just die and turn to dust. But that doesn't bother me. The journey of this machine will one day come to a close, and the patterns engraved in the flesh and blood that define it will break down and disappear. And while the processes that replicate my genes gave me the desire to survive, I understand the state of my existence. To ask if I'm just going to eventually die is about as meaningful as asking "so you get hungry and you eat, is this all there is to food??". What's relevant is that as long as we can get over our irrationality and petty tribalism, WHAT I am will survive. And that's all that matters to me.

As for your analogy, you're only confirming my claims of religion's view of humanity's subordination. It is okay to be slaves, because coach knows better than a bunch of small and insignificant creatures stumbling blindly in the dark. I don't understand why anyone would want that.
 
This is completely my own opinion, but I think one human shortcoming is trying to understand God with our limited perspective. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to understand Him, but I think we have to be realistic enough to realize that, as mere mortals, we have only our own relatively brief history and experiences to draw context from. We just plain don't know enough to be able to comprehend the complexities of God.

The way I think of it, we are still infantile in regard to our eternal progression. Science says we use just a fraction of our brain's capacity. To me, this hints that, as eternal knowledge goes, we've barely scratched the surface.

If you sit a toddler down and explain in detail how to preform brain surgery, he isn't going to be able to do it. There is a progression of learning that has to occur first.

/my rambling

If you a sit a toddler down and explain in detail how to preform brain surgery, he isn't going to be able to do it.

But to expect a toddler to preform brain surgery, you must train him, slowly but surely, how to do it. It will take 20-30 years, but he'll be capable of it only so long as you teach him along the way. Part of teaching is getting that toddler to grasp concepts for himself.

Therefore, at one point or another, that toddler has to make leaps to grasp the big concepts. We, as humans, have been learning for thousands of years. As illustrated by releasing the golden plates back to the world, God believes us ready to take more steps.
 
I don't see it that way. Both charity and cruelty are within human capacity, and they would have existed regardless. My problem with religion goes a lot deeper. It provides a path for justifying what would otherwise be unjustifiable. But let's not dive too deeply into that.

I don't believe in anything outside of nature. I doubt such statements even possess meaning. I believe in the use of logic and reason to evaluate verifiable data to reach valid conclusions about reality that can help us improve our lives.

So does anything else? Whether it's "bringing the Lord to savages of the new world", or "bringing a free and democratic government to a new country", there's always going to be a justification for doing something terrible.
 
Science says we use just a fraction of our brain's capacity. To me, this hints that, as eternal knowledge goes, we've barely scratched the surface.

If you sit a toddler down and explain in detail how to preform brain surgery, he isn't going to be able to do it. There is a progression of learning that has to occur first.

/my rambling

From Wiki "Ten Percent of Brain Myth" consensus page:

Though factors of intelligence can increase with training,[2] the popular notion that large parts of the brain remain unused, and could subsequently be "activated", rests more in popular folklore than scientific theory. Though mysteries regarding brain function remain—e.g. memory, consciousness — the physiology of brain mapping suggests that most if not all areas of the brain have a function.[3][4]
 
Just a clarification to throw at ElRoach0.

But to better understand the part in bold.


He was saying to God, to give him his honor/power or that which made him God, and that Lucifer would then be God.

Just bringing it up because it was not mentioned as far as I could see.

One other note that makes me smile, though in all probability unintentional. El means deity. You have an El in front of your name. I will not read into it, but it does make me smile.

El also means "The"

And honor can be translated (albeit badly)as price. Could be taken as "set me the thine price", which could also tie in to him being willing to pay the price(suffer) instead of his older brother.
 
El also means "The"

And honor can be translated (albeit badly)as price. Could be taken as "set me the thine price", which could also tie in to him being willing to pay the price(suffer) instead of his older brother.

I'll go with you on the El one. As to the honor, there is no translation. It was given in English, and that is the word they used for the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price it was translated as honor, and I don't think we have the original to look at and see if there were multiple words and it was translated to honor but could have been something else. Either way, I believe honor is the correct word in both instances.
 
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