ElRoach0; explaining and defending his beliefs(read "The Official 'Ask a Mormon' Thread" first

[Jazz Spazz]

I gave the generic Christian principle of reward and punishment as an example. It wasn't intended to be about Mormonism. I'm not going to debate specific doctrines because it's pointless. A Muslim poster will jump in and explain how my response to Mormonism doesn't apply to HIS religion. And if I respond to that, well, you get the idea. There's just so much time in the day.

But what I said applies to your belief, regardless of how you put. There is no difference in demanding a certain behavior while threatening those who disagree, and your version about law and consequences. You're saying precisely the same thing. There's an outside agent making grand claims about his accomplishments. He refuses to give even the slightest proof for his existence (and I do understand the idea of faith. All religions use it to "prove" their religion is the one worth following). And he promises rewards for those who follow (better placement in the afterlife). In other words, we're so very small. At least in comparison to the omniscient master who has absolute power over our destiny FOR ALL ETERNITY. Yeah, I think I'll pass.



My inheritance as the most capable system in all of creation of course! Not me personally, mind you. But intelligent life in general (covering my *** in case there are other civilizations out there). To me, there's dumb energy and matter extending for trillions of miles in all directions. And then there's us. We created all gods in our image because we are the closest thing to gods that the universe ever managed to come up with. And I'd very much like to use this inheritance to create the best possible existence that can be created.

If you're asking about me personally, then yes, I will just die and turn to dust. But that doesn't bother me. The journey of this machine will one day come to a close, and the patterns engraved in the flesh and blood that define it will break down and disappear. And while the processes that replicate my genes gave me the desire to survive, I understand the state of my existence. To ask if I'm just going to eventually die is about as meaningful as asking "so you get hungry and you eat, is this all there is to food??". What's relevant is that as long as we can get over our irrationality and petty tribalism, WHAT I am will survive. And that's all that matters to me.

As for your analogy, you're only confirming my claims of religion's view of humanity's subordination. It is okay to be slaves, because coach knows better than a bunch of small and insignificant creatures stumbling blindly in the dark. I don't understand why anyone would want that.

Like I said before you look at this in a totally different way than I do. You look at this as some sort of master/slave relationship. I look at this as a teacher/student relationship where if I choose to follow the teacher's example and words I will end up better off. If I choose not to I will still end up somewhere, and I hope I'm happy with it.

I get it though, some people like to learn things the hard way rather than learn from the experiences and wisdom of others. That's cool. I just try to learn from the experiences and wisdom of others as much as I can and learn as few lessons the hard way as possible. I've done a few the hard way and honestly it stinks.
My analogy is about a coach, teaching players. Are the players small and insignificant creatures stumbling around in the dark? No. Do they know as much as someone that's been there and knows how things work, not yet.

If you had never been to Spain, and you had no language issues, but didn't know the streets of Barcelona.... would you ask someone to help you find a specific place you were looking for or find a map or would you be all prideful and say you can find it on your own because you are just as smart as anyone else in this city and fumble around back and forth until you found it. Personally, I would rather ask someone that knows and speed things up and save me time, effort, pain and frustration. Other people on the other hand like to think of themselves as the most complex minds in the universe and think they can do it all on their own. That's fine. Just remember when you die eventually, and you still exist in some form.... ask for directions.

 

[PearlWatson]

Like I said before you look at this in a totally different way than I do. You look at this as some sort of master/slave relationship. I look at this as a teacher/student relationship where if I choose to follow the teacher's example and words I will end up better off. If I choose not to I will still end up somewhere, and I hope I'm happy with it.

I get it though, some people like to learn things the hard way rather than learn from the experiences and wisdom of others. That's cool. I just try to learn from the experiences and wisdom of others as much as I can and learn as few lessons the hard way as possible. I've done a few the hard way and honestly it stinks.
My analogy is about a coach, teaching players. Are the players small and insignificant creatures stumbling around in the dark? No. Do they know as much as someone that's been there and knows how things work, not yet.

If you had never been to Spain, and you had no language issues, but didn't know the streets of Barcelona.... would you ask someone to help you find a specific place you were looking for or find a map or would you be all prideful and say you can find it on your own because you are just as smart as anyone else in this city and fumble around back and forth until you found it. Personally, I would rather ask someone that knows and speed things up and save me time, effort, pain and frustration. Other people on the other hand like to think of themselves as the most complex minds in the universe and think they can do it all on their own. That's fine. Just remember when you die eventually, and you still exist in some form.... ask for directions.

You are a rare man that would ask for directions.

/smart-*** comment

 

[Harambe]

I'll go with you on the El one. As to the honor, there is no translation. It was given in English, and that is the word they used for the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price it was translated as honor, and I don't think we have the original to look at and see if there were multiple words and it was translated to honor but could have been something else. Either way, I believe honor is the correct word in both instances.

All I'm gonna tell you, is they didn't speak English when it was originally vocalized. There had to have been a translation at one point or another.

 

[Harambe]

We could bicker about it all day, but I'm not going to convince anyone. Nor am I trying to; I'm simply trying to share what my open mind has seen as a possibility. I am simply asking that everyone take what evidence they have, all of it, and lead to the logical conclusion; it's possible, no matter how improbable. Wars have been started for less.

What do I believe? Not just believe it's a possibility?

I believe we're here trying to become perfect, so we can become like God. As all of us will sin, in order to be forgiven of those trespasses, we have to forgive others of their trespasses against us. How can I reconcile God not forgiving Lucifer of his trespasses, when taught that we can't be like God until we forgive?

There's a flaw somewhere in the system. Whether that's a lie a man told that was accepted by other men as truth, or something God's unwilling to tell us, or anything else, it just doesn't matter. We can not have such severe contradictions.

 

[Bronco70]

If you a sit a toddler down and explain in detail how to preform brain surgery, he isn't going to be able to do it.

But to expect a toddler to preform brain surgery, you must train him, slowly but surely, how to do it. It will take 20-30 years, but he'll be capable of it only so long as you teach him along the way. Part of teaching is getting that toddler to grasp concepts for himself.

Therefore, at one point or another, that toddler has to make leaps to grasp the big concepts. We, as humans, have been learning for thousands of years. As illustrated by releasing the golden plates back to the world, God believes us ready to take more steps.

You pretty much just repeated my point. There is a process of learning that must occur. I'm saying, in the context of eternal development, a few thousand years is the mere blink of an eye. Not nearly enough time to gain the knowledge to understand God. So in the toddler analogy, after all those centuries, we're still toddlers.

 

[Harambe]

You pretty much just repeated my point. There is a process of learning that must occur. I'm saying, in the context of eternal development, a few thousand years is the mere blink of an eye. Not nearly enough time to gain the knowledge to understand God. So in the toddler analogy, after all those centuries, we're still toddlers.

And how exactly would you measure what is or isn't enough time? We don't exactly have a basis of comparison.

 

[Bronco70]

From Wiki "Ten Percent of Brain Myth" consensus page:

Though factors of intelligence can increase with training,[2] the popular notion that large parts of the brain remain unused, and could subsequently be "activated", rests more in popular folklore than scientific theory. Though mysteries regarding brain function remain—e.g. memory, consciousness — the physiology of brain mapping suggests that most if not all areas of the brain have a function.[3][4]

This really is just nit picking an unimportant aspect of my point.

 

[Bronco70]

And how exactly would you measure what is or isn't enough time? We don't exactly have a basis of comparison.

I can't quantify it for you. But as I stated at the beginning of my original post, it's just my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong. But to me, that's the explanation that makes the most sense.

 

[Harambe]

This really is just nit picking an unimportant aspect of my point.

So you believe that when we finally use 100% of our brains, we'll be God's too?

Interesting thought, I'll give it that. But that only could be a measurement. Not a defined measurement of how to gauge whether we're ready for Godliness. There is no definitive proof this is an appropriate way to measure whether mankind is "ready" for something or not.

Your argument seems to be that we're still just infants, premature Gods. My argument is not that we're adolescent Gods, only how can you really prove we are or aren't? Seems pretty safe to say that the quantifiable measure of how "ready" we are isn't going to be how much of the brain, a part of our mortal bodies, we're using or not.

 

[Bronco70]

So you believe that when we finally use 100% of our brains, we'll be God's too?

Interesting thought, I'll give it that. But that only could be a measurement. Not a defined measurement of how to gauge whether we're ready for Godliness. There is no definitive proof this is an appropriate way to measure whether mankind is "ready" for something or not.

Your argument seems to be that we're still just infants, premature Gods. My argument is not that we're adolescent Gods, only how can you really prove we are or aren't? Seems pretty safe to say that the quantifiable measure of how "ready" we are isn't going to be how much of the brain, a part of our mortal bodies, we're using or not.

That's just it. We can't measure it. As far as God goes, we are left to whatever our individual interpretation of the evidence is. All these thousands of years of scientific and philosophical progression, and nobody has been able to either concretely prove or disprove the existence of God. So, as you said, we have nothing to really measure against.

 

[Harambe]

That's just it. We can't measure it. As far as God goes, we are left to whatever our individual interpretation of the evidence is. All these thousands of years of scientific and philosophical progression, and nobody has been able to either concretely prove or disprove the existence of God. So, as you said, we have nothing to really measure against.

Exactly. So saying "we are but infants" is just as likely to be right as "we're in our early twenties". So you're left making the decision yourself.

 

[Bronco70]

Exactly. So saying "we are but infants" is just as likely to be right as "we're in our early twenties". So you're left making the decision yourself.

Absolutely. I can only speak for myself, and my beliefs are probably going to differ, to one degree or another, from everyone else's.

Ultimately, I believe a person should carefully look at the evidence, and how it relates to his/her situation, and act accordingly. Each person should do what they truly feel is right, in their heart. For some, that means organized religion, for others, it doesn't. I'll probably get a tweaking from some of the other mormons on the board, but I don't believe my church is the "only way, period". For me it is, though.

In correlation, I'd like to point out that my statement about understanding God goes both ways. Believers and followers are as infantile in understanding as everyone else is. We may think we have it all mapped out, but I think we've been given just as much info as we can process, which likely is far from comprehensively detailed. To me, I think the most important thing we can do is be the best person we can. Develop ourselves and treat each other with respect and kindness. As we gain knowledge and understanding, we progress.

Again, this is merely my own philosophy on the subject.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

We could bicker about it all day, but I'm not going to convince anyone. Nor am I trying to; I'm simply trying to share what my open mind has seen as a possibility. I am simply asking that everyone take what evidence they have, all of it, and lead to the logical conclusion; it's possible, no matter how improbable. Wars have been started for less.

What do I believe? Not just believe it's a possibility?

I believe we're here trying to become perfect, so we can become like God. As all of us will sin, in order to be forgiven of those trespasses, we have to forgive others of their trespasses against us. How can I reconcile God not forgiving Lucifer of his trespasses, when taught that we can't be like God until we forgive?

There's a flaw somewhere in the system. Whether that's a lie a man told that was accepted by other men as truth, or something God's unwilling to tell us, or anything else, it just doesn't matter. We can not have such severe contradictions.

I guess that's a parting point for us. I don't see contradiction in this like you do.

God says that if we repent, or change, he will forgive and remember whatever it was no more. If we do not change I suppose it is possible to forgive and still remember so as to not replay the same situation over and over.

If you had a good friend that stole something out of your house, and you called that friend on it, and they planned on taking something next time they came over.... it is possible you could forgive them for taking whatever it was, but still not let them in your house again. They did not change, you forgave them, but you still do not need to give them another opportunity to take something if you know for a fact they will try.

That's the way I see it.

I don't think forgiveness must equal having no consequences. You can have forgiveness and still enforce consequences. I forgive my kids all the time for breaking house rules, yet I still enforce consequences for them choosing to break the rules. I see no contradiction in this.

Am I not understanding your point?

 

[Harambe]

I guess that's a parting point for us. I don't see contradiction in this like you do.

God says that if we repent, or change, he will forgive and remember whatever it was no more. If we do not change I suppose it is possible to forgive and still remember so as to not replay the same situation over and over.

If you had a good friend that stole something out of your house, and you called that friend on it, and they planned on taking something next time they came over.... it is possible you could forgive them for taking whatever it was, but still not let them in your house again. They did not change, you forgave them, but you still do not need to give them another opportunity to take something if you know for a fact they will try.

That's the way I see it.

I don't think forgiveness must equal having no consequences. You can have forgiveness and still enforce consequences. I forgive my kids all the time for breaking house rules, yet I still enforce consequences for them choosing to break the rules. I see no contradiction in this.

Am I not understanding your point?

You're understanding my point, and thank you for that. Not many people get over the hump in the middle. But we don't get to use the bolded section.

If I had a friend that was going to continue to steal things from my house, I wouldn't let him back in. However, alter that from friend to family. Further alter that as he had a perfect track record before the incident(one is not given authority from God on a whim).

In this situation, you have an isolated incident.

But lets follow through with this to it's natural end.

Your friend/brother tells you he's going to steal more things. The intent is still there.

What happens now? You kick him out. You should forgive him at this point, but keep yourself safe, as you'll agree. But don't you think you owe it to your brother to get him some help? Clearly there's a deeper issue here, perhaps cleptomania, or even drugs. This is your dear brother/friend.. shouldn't you want to help him?

Ok. So he doesn't want help. What do you do? Continue to protect yourself, and let him do his thing. Soon enough he'll get caught, thrown in jail. That's a sad thing. You don't have to do anything, but are you not your brothers keeper? You've tried to help him before, and didn't get very far.

So how do you try to help him from here? He has to hit rock bottom, and he's gotta want to change. He has to identify himself as a problem.. the bad guy. And he has to accept that. He has to accept what he's done. The only thing left after that is to move on.

From there, counseling sessions. Probably a years worth. Throughout that year, a big part of his healing will be to try to make amends with those he's stolen from in the past.

At that point, yes. I'd allow my brother back in to my home.

So lets go through the life cycle

Steal
Have it known to your family that you stole
Keep stealing
Get caught/arrested
Hit rock bottom/Thrown in Jail
Accept what you've done/do your time
Identify there's a problem with who you are
Accept what you've done
Get help/counseling
Make amends/apologize to those you've put out

The way I see it, Lucifer's already hit rock bottom by being cast out. There can't be a worse feeling in the cosmos. He's currently serving time. Is it really that far a stretch to think a once proud and loyal angel to accept that he's been the bad guy?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You're understanding my point, and thank you for that. Not many people get over the hump in the middle. But we don't get to use the bolded section.

If I had a friend that was going to continue to steal things from my house, I wouldn't let him back in. However, alter that from friend to family. Further alter that as he had a perfect track record before the incident(one is not given authority from God on a whim).

In this situation, you have an isolated incident.

But lets follow through with this to it's natural end.

Your friend/brother tells you he's going to steal more things. The intent is still there.

What happens now? You kick him out. You should forgive him at this point, but keep yourself safe, as you'll agree. But don't you think you owe it to your brother to get him some help? Clearly there's a deeper issue here, perhaps cleptomania, or even drugs. This is your dear brother/friend.. shouldn't you want to help him?

Ok. So he doesn't want help. What do you do? Continue to protect yourself, and let him do his thing. Soon enough he'll get caught, thrown in jail. That's a sad thing. You don't have to do anything, but are you not your brothers keeper? You've tried to help him before, and didn't get very far.

So how do you try to help him from here? He has to hit rock bottom, and he's gotta want to change. He has to identify himself as a problem.. the bad guy. And he has to accept that. He has to accept what he's done. The only thing left after that is to move on.

From there, counseling sessions. Probably a years worth. Throughout that year, a big part of his healing will be to try to make amends with those he's stolen from in the past.

At that point, yes. I'd allow my brother back in to my home.

So lets go through the life cycle

Steal
Have it known to your family that you stole
Keep stealing
Get caught/arrested
Hit rock bottom/Thrown in Jail
Accept what you've done/do your time
Identify there's a problem with who you are
Accept what you've done
Get help/counseling
Make amends/apologize to those you've put out

The way I see it, Lucifer's already hit rock bottom by being cast out. There can't be a worse feeling in the cosmos. He's currently serving time. Is it really that far a stretch to think a once proud and loyal angel to accept that he's been the bad guy?

Sure, I'm with you on people and even Satan to be able to find forgiveness, the key is if he wants it. If I can't use that bold section about him planning on doing it again, they you should not be able to say he feels he has hit rock bottom and accepts what he has done and would like to change it.

I do agree with your point though that all, even him, have a chance to change and be forgiven.

One thing I keep in mind is that to God time is basically meaningless, so our idea that he is cast off forever could be similar to it taking a 7 days to create the world. In my opinion Satan is still throwing a fit for not getting what he wanted. I don't see it as impossible that he could change and I don't see it impossible that God could forgive him either. I think that us on this earth misunderstand things and read into things.... it could be "forever" having to do with this earth. Not 100% sure. Either way it's up to us to change and come to God freely, it's also up to Satan and anyone else. I think God forgives us all and gives us more chances than he gets credit for. just my opinion.

God and Christ are compared to light in the scriptures. Satan and others that reject the light will be in darkness. That is their own choice, and to me that means they will be away from God and Christ so they have no light. I don't see it as much as them being "cast off" as the wording is, as I see it as them choosing to walk away from the light. again, my opinion.

 

[Scat]

So you believe that when we finally use 100% of our brains, we'll be God's too?

Interesting thought, I'll give it that. But that only could be a measurement. Not a defined measurement of how to gauge whether we're ready for Godliness. There is no definitive proof this is an appropriate way to measure whether mankind is "ready" for something or not.

Your argument seems to be that we're still just infants, premature Gods. My argument is not that we're adolescent Gods, only how can you really prove we are or aren't? Seems pretty safe to say that the quantifiable measure of how "ready" we are isn't going to be how much of the brain, a part of our mortal bodies, we're using or not.

I tend to think it has nothing to do with the percentage of your brain being used but rather knowledge. Think about it. A person with modern knowledge and the ability to utilize said knowledge would be looked upon as a god just 500 years ago for knowing even some of the most basic information.

At this stage we simply don't have the knowledge to comprehend what might be considered basic concepts to god.

 

[Siro]

I just wanted to say that "we're only using a small percentage of our brain" is just movie science. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real life.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I just wanted to say that "we're only using a small percentage of our brain" is just movie science. It has nothing whatsoever to do with real life.

So... according to non movie science... how much of our brain capacity are we at and utilizing?

 

[Siro]

So... according to non movie science... how much of our brain capacity are we at and utilizing?

Not really how it works...

We use our entire brain. Not at the same time, of course. You wouldn't want to be flailing your arms, singing, and taking piss while you're trying to relax and read a book. But none of the brain is wasted.

As for elasticity, brain's capacity and how it utilizes that capacity improves with knowledge and training. And this continues throughout your life. The common statement that your brain stop developing in your twenties is also a myth. And that's obvious, as we continue to experience "growth" throughout our lives.

 

[Siro]

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html