Following Potential 2025 Draftees

[KqWIN]

I'm sorry but to what zone? In case you aren't aware but since DL took over in 2013, 12 teams out of 15 have gotten to the WCF. Only three teams that couldn't make it are the Pelicans, Kings and...you guessed it. I mean, that's hell of a company don't you think? And y'all act like what DL did to this team was some kinda accomplishments. Then there are at least 20 other GMs that deserve more praises.

And I thought we are over on this Donovan/Rudy debate? I think the ultimare conclusion is, if Donovan and Rudy were really some kinda generational talents that "don't grow on trees", you'd expect them to at least to take us the WCF, like what other 12 Western teams have done in the last 10 yrs or so, right?

I mean Rudy did it for the Wolves just last year and I like Donovan's chance this year with the cavs this year. It's either they just weren't as good as we thought they were, which massively undermined DL's credit for drafting them in the place, or it was simply a massive failure on the management part for not building a competant team around them. Like we had prime Rudy for 7+ seasons but couldn't do it, then only to have him go and achieve it on his second year with the Wolves, aka one of the worst run organization in American sports? Either way it wasn't a good look for DL, which is why we fired him and he's struggling to find a full time job in the league right now.

If you’re going to dismiss Rudy and Don like afterthoughts and agonizing of Grayson Allen, it’s clear that you’re not actually trying to evaluate DL objectively. I never said DL was perfect, but those two draft picks alone were massive. In fact, they were so good that you could **** up a lot of stuff like DL did and still have a very good team over an extended period of time. Yes, players of that caliber absolutely do not grow on trees. You’re out of your god damn mind if you think so.

Don’t get it confused, I’m not here to say DL was amazing, but those players are not afterthoughts. Those are all nba players who were not high draft picks. You can draft 5 Udoka’s in a row and it wouldn’t off set drafting a hall of fame level player in the first round. When you dismiss things like that, it doesn’t help your argument. It just makes you look like another hysterical, whining fan. You’re not coming from a place of rationality if two future hall of famers is side note and what really matters is Grayson Allen.

 

[KqWIN]

Half the fools on this board would have traded Kessler for peanuts even a few months ago. I think the problem DL ran into was trying to draft to fit Quinn's roster rigidity, especially those non- Rudy minutes. We forget how white knuckle things got when Rudy checked out.

Rudy and Don were killer moves and I take real issue when people treat that like an afterthought….but the team building around those two was truly dreadful. It amazed me that we didn’t even give those two another chance. We built a roster that was obviously poorly constructed fit wise and one of the most stubborn coaches in the NBA. It will never sit right with me that we didn’t even try another version of Don+Rudy. We were hell bent on sticking with Quin and also doubling down on zero defense outside of Rudy.

I don’t know who you blame for that inaction, but to me that was one of the biggest mistakes this franchise has made. Sitting on our hands with two players of that caliber was incredibly wasteful.

 

[jom2003]

If you’re going to dismiss Rudy and Don like afterthoughts and agonizing of Grayson Allen, it’s clear that you’re not actually trying to evaluate DL objectively. I never said DL was perfect, but those two draft picks alone were massive. In fact, they were so good that you could **** up a lot of stuff like DL did and still have a very good team over an extended period of time. Yes, players of that caliber absolutely do not grow on trees. You’re out of your god damn mind if you think so.

Don’t get it confused, I’m not here to say DL was amazing, but those players are not afterthoughts. Those are all nba players who were not high draft picks. You can draft 5 Udoka’s in a row and it wouldn’t off set drafting a hall of fame level player in the first round. When you dismiss things like that, it doesn’t help your argument. It just makes you look like another hysterical, whining fan. You’re not coming from a place of rationality if two future hall of famers is side note and what really matters is Grayson Allen.

When have I ever said Rudy and Donovan are afterthoughts? Just look up my comments back from 2019-2022 and I've always said over and over that those two were great players, fantastic players being let down by an incompetent management that is Dennis Lindsey. And yes I actually agreed with you by saying Rudy made it to WCF with the wolves, aka one of the worst run organizations in all of American sports, on his second year... when DL failed to do so for 7 ****ing seasons. And Donovan's trip to his first ever conference final isn't far from the horizon either. And honestly this really shouldn't have happened, don't you think? We absolutely should've made it to at least one WCF when we had those two on our team. I mean 12 teams out of 15 in the West managed to do it since 2013 when DL took over, which left us, the kings and Pelicans to be the only teams that missed out. How can you possibly defend that? Do these 12 other teams have some guys that “dont grow on trees”?

And you know I'm not just talking about Grayson Allen. Allen is merely a symptom to the bigger problem. What about Trey Burke? What about DedEx and gave him a 3 yr fully guaranteed extension knowing his injury risk? What about selling your pick when Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Clarkson and the ****ng Joker was still available? What about the balance test on Lyles? What about taking Tony Bradley over Derrick White and Josh Hart? What about the historic blunder that ended up getting him fired that is the Dokey Azubuikey? And don't even get me started on his absolute ****** management of "bAcKuP CeNteRs" and "point guard rentals". Just tell me why do we still owe a FRP to OKC in the middle of rebuild when OKC is contending for a title?

All in all, this really shouldn't have happened. Both DM and Rudy are still in the middle of their prime and should still be on the team. Instead, we can only watch both these guys contending for a chip with other teams on national TV while us jazz fans having to ensure this painful process of a tank. And we only have DL to thank.

 

[jom2003]

Rudy and Don were killer moves and I take real issue when people treat that like an afterthought….but the team building around those two was truly dreadful. It amazed me that we didn’t even give those two another chance. We built a roster that was obviously poorly constructed fit wise and one of the most stubborn coaches in the NBA. It will never sit right with me that we didn’t even try another version of Don+Rudy. We were hell bent on sticking with Quin and also doubling down on zero defense outside of Rudy.

I don’t know who you blame for that inaction, but to me that was one of the biggest mistakes this franchise has made. Sitting on our hands with two players of that caliber was incredibly wasteful.

And your logic runs equally well for Nico Harrison. The guy was on a roll prior to the Luka trade and emsembled an amazing supporting crew around him that took them to the NBA final.

"Hey mavs fans, even though Nico just executed one of the worst trades in NBA history, lest not forget all the amazing things he done prior to that."

It just doesn't work that way I'm afraid.

One amazing move or moves he made years ago is not some kinda get-out-of-jail-free card that excused all the horrendous moves that follow.

 

[KqWIN]

When have I ever said Rudy and Donovan are afterthoughts? Just look up my comments back from 2019-2022 and I've always said over and over that those two were great players, fantastic players being let down by an incompetent management that is Dennis Lindsey. And yes I actually agreed with you by saying Rudy made it to WCF with the wolves, aka one of the worst run organizations in all of American sports, on his second year... when DL failed to do so for 7 ****ing seasons. And Donovan's trip to his first ever conference final isn't far from the horizon either. And honestly this really shouldn't have happened, don't you think? We absolutely should've made it to at least one WCF when we had those two on our team. I mean 12 teams out of 15 in the West managed to do it since 2013 when DL took over, which left us, the kings and Pelicans to be the only teams that missed out. How can you possibly defend that? Do these 12 other teams have some guys that “dont grow on trees”?

And you know I'm not just talking about Grayson Allen. Allen is merely a symptom to the bigger problem. What about Trey Burke? What about DedEx and gave him a 3 yr fully guaranteed extension knowing his injury risk? What about selling your pick when Dinwiddie, Jerami Grant, Clarkson and the ****ng Joker was still available? What about the balance test on Lyles? What about taking Tony Bradley over Derrick White and Josh Hart? What about the historic blunder that ended up getting him fired that is the Dokey Azubuikey? And don't even get me started on his absolute ****** management of "bAcKuP CeNteRs" and "point guard rentals". Just tell me why do we still owe a FRP to OKC in the middle of rebuild when OKC is contending for a title?

All in all, this really shouldn't have happened. Both DM and Rudy are still in the middle of their prime and should still be on the team. Instead, we can only watch both these guys contending for a chip with other teams on national TV while us jazz fans having to ensure this painful process of a tank. And we only have DL to thank.

I’m not the one constantly downplaying how good those guys were and agonizing over things that are so insignificant compared to to them. I don’t care about your thoughts because it’s obvious that you’re not coming from an objective perspective. If you can’t acknowledge the magnitude of drafting two hall of famers outside of the top 10, you’re not based in rationality. I’m not pushing to say DL was good or bad, I am simply laughing at people downplaying those two and pretending like they’re coming from a place of logic. Being a unbearable debbie downer is no different than being an unbearable homer. I will laugh at both sides of the hysteria. Being so obviously biased does not make for a stronger argument.

The more you rag on these other moves, the more you make my point that Gobert and Mitchell should not be understated. If DL was so horrible, how did we still get out of the Millsap and Big Al purgatory without success? It’s because those guys are damn good. You keep arguing as if I’m saying that DL was the best, but that’s not my perspective. My perspective is that we shouldn’t downplay those two, and when you talk about how horrible the moves around them are it only furthers my point. We had the success we did, the more you say things were bad besides Gobert and Mitchell, the more you acknowledge how great they are.

It’s even funnier because you go on to acknowledge how awful it is that we let these guys. So which is it….are these guys amazing player who don’t grow on trees? Should we be upset that they are gone? Or are they just an afterthought who we should downplay instead?

We are talking about the draft anyways, this is the draft thread after all. Whatever went on beyond the draft isn’t relevant to his draft record.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Nah that's a reach. Tatum was already very polished offensively as a prospect. Basically everything that Ace isn't.

Damn near identical per 100 stats for Ace/Tatum (big differences in FT% and a difference in assist, but everything else is pretty close)

Tatum played with two future rotation NBA players (Kennard/Grayson) along with two in/out of the league NBA players (Giles/Frank Jackson) and all their rotation guards/wings could shoot well. I would say Tatum's floor spacing and team around him was undeniably better, as well as being coached by a college GOAT. Tatum was also about 6 months older than Bailey as a Freshman. I would agree that Tatum was more polished, and more well-rounded, but it's not to some crazy degree. I feel like we are talking about Ace like he's GG Jackson.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I’m not the one constantly downplaying how good those guys were and agonizing over things that are so insignificant compared to to them. I don’t care about your thoughts because it’s obvious that you’re not coming from an objective perspective. If you can’t acknowledge the magnitude of drafting two hall of famers outside of the top 10, you’re not based in rationality. I’m not pushing to say DL was good or bad, I am simply laughing at people downplaying those two and pretending like they’re coming from a place of logic. Being a unbearable debbie downer is no different than being an unbearable homer. I will laugh at both sides of the hysteria. Being so obviously biased does not make for a stronger argument.

The more you rag on these other moves, the more you make my point that Gobert and Mitchell should not be understated. If DL was so horrible, how did we still get out of the Millsap and Big Al purgatory without success? It’s because those guys are damn good. You keep arguing as if I’m saying that DL was the best, but that’s not my perspective. My perspective is that we shouldn’t downplay those two, and when you talk about how horrible the moves around them are it only furthers my point. We had the success we did, the more you say things were bad besides Gobert and Mitchell, the more you acknowledge how great they are.

It’s even funnier because you go on to acknowledge how awful it is that we let these guys. So which is it….are these guys amazing player who don’t grow on trees? Should we be upset that they are gone? Or are they just an afterthought who we should downplay instead?

We are talking about the draft anyways, this is the draft thread after all. Whatever went on beyond the draft isn’t relevant to his draft record.

I think DL was undeniably good. The bar isnt super high for what makes a good GM, and when you operate in a small market you are playing at a disadvantage and you have to give those GM's a grade on a slight curve.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

View: https://youtu.be/zi99767i-nU?si=4bapsBrkyU1wEmIg

I've seen people talk about Micah Peavy, but when I look at his career Im really underwhelmed. He's having his first good season as a 5th year senior after transferring to a worse conference than he played in his first 4 years. Bad shooter all 4 years prior to this year, still has a bad FT% this year. Would be an interesting undrafted 2-way player, but not someone I would draft. His highlights this year do look impressive.

I dont really see Isaiah Evans as a sleeper. He was a top 20 HS recruit.

I love Cedric Coward, too bad he tore his ACL. I think he probably returns to school? If he doesnt, he would be a top target in the 2nd round to me as he had the potential, in my eyes, to be a top 20 prospect this season.

Im also high on Stirtz, but I dont see him entering the NBA. He's got a child's body currently. He needs to transfer up and improve his body, but he's super skilled and a great player. His team made the Tourney, so I think he does have a chance if he goes on a Cinderella run (which is possible because Drake beat multiple high major teams this season)

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJcvjT9WXE0&ab_channel=ACCDigitalNetwork


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nedxjZwBfFg&ab_channel=ACCDigitalNetwork

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjy2LyDaTU4&ab_channel=Big12Conference


The Utes suck, but this guy could be interesting next year if Alex Jensen can sprinkle some magic on him.

 

[jom2003]

I’m not the one constantly downplaying how good those guys were and agonizing over things that are so insignificant compared to to them. I don’t care about your thoughts because it’s obvious that you’re not coming from an objective perspective. If you can’t acknowledge the magnitude of drafting two hall of famers outside of the top 10, you’re not based in rationality. I’m not pushing to say DL was good or bad, I am simply laughing at people downplaying those two and pretending like they’re coming from a place of logic. Being a unbearable debbie downer is no different than being an unbearable homer. I will laugh at both sides of the hysteria. Being so obviously biased does not make for a stronger argument.

The more you rag on these other moves, the more you make my point that Gobert and Mitchell should not be understated. If DL was so horrible, how did we still get out of the Millsap and Big Al purgatory without success? It’s because those guys are damn good. You keep arguing as if I’m saying that DL was the best, but that’s not my perspective. My perspective is that we shouldn’t downplay those two, and when you talk about how horrible the moves around them are it only furthers my point. We had the success we did, the more you say things were bad besides Gobert and Mitchell, the more you acknowledge how great they are.

It’s even funnier because you go on to acknowledge how awful it is that we let these guys. So which is it….are these guys amazing player who don’t grow on trees? Should we be upset that they are gone? Or are they just an afterthought who we should downplay instead?

We are talking about the draft anyways, this is the draft thread after all. Whatever went on beyond the draft isn’t relevant to his draft record.

Attacking me or calling me “irrational” still doesn't explain why we failed to make a trip to the WCF despite having “two future HoFers” when 12 other teams have done it over that same period. You judge a GM’s work by result and DL has nothing to show for it. Again I don't understand your concept of “success” when we are basically in the same category as the Kings and Pelicans. Just cant rationalize it I'm sorry.

You kept emphasizing how important DM/Rudy were to our franchise then why did we end up letting them go?

Could it be that DL already ran the team into the ground with his dumb move after dumb move until there was no way out?

And yes this is a draft thread so while DL does take some credit for DM/Rudy pick, we can still call out his other terrible draft picks. Bad moves add up over time especially for a small market team like us. No big name FA is gonna come here for the rescue so we have to nail our draft picks. But DL failed repeatedly until we had to do a full teardown just to keep our own FRP protected from OKC’s reach.

 

[jom2003]

I think DL was undeniably good. The bar isnt super high for what makes a good GM, and when you operate in a small market you are playing at a disadvantage and you have to give those GM's a grade on a slight curve.

I think for a small market GM the bar is higher on the draft cuz there isn't as big of margin for error compared to big market teams like LA who can just go and sign FAs to make up their roster. So the majority of our roster with role players included need to be coming from the draft.

When comparing to other WCF teams our market are just as comparable to teams like Memphis, Portland, SAS, Denver, OKC, Minny. So not sure you can give DL much of an excuse and call it a success when all these small market teams have reached the WCF, the finals and even won a chip since 2013 while we can’t. All these teams have something in common that is they built their core mostly through the draft.