Bumping this question. I would really love to hear some thoughts on this, especially from those people who have been following the draft closely for longer than I have.
Following Potential 2025 Draftees
- Thread starter Elizah Huge
- Start date
Define what "off-ball" means. Was Hayward an off-ball player? He became an all-star. Paul George? Klay Thompson? Steph Curry?
IMO there are a ton, but it depends on what your definitions is for on/off ball player.
Good points. I would say someone that has major responsibilities for dribbling, passing, and creating. I would consider George, Hayward and Curry on ball, Klay as off ball, although I don't really remember what their roles were in college.
I think of VJ and Ace as both off ball players, although they are probably right on the border of considering on ball. VJ would sometimes be asked to dribble and create, but it wasn't a primary role for him. Ace created, but only for himself.
seattlejazzfan
Well-Known Member
and one would only know this if you watch actual games, but he's very good on ball defender who plays extremely hard on that end of the floor. as a help defender, he averages as many blocks per game as cooper flagg.
either way, regardless of whatever anybody thinks of Bailey, there is a good chance that's who the jazz come out of this draft with. jazz fans might want to start warming up to the dude.
“Watch the games” isn’t an argument btw.
I get why people say “the potential the potential the potential” with Ace. But being taller doesn’t necessarily mean more potential. I think Ace can be all star so don’t twist my words, but I do think our understanding of potential is flawed. We hyper fixate on this idea of ceilings and floors….what we should really focus on is likelihood of high outcome.
I get why people say “the potential the potential the potential” with Ace. But being taller doesn’t necessarily mean more potential. I think Ace can be all star so don’t twist my words, but I do think our understanding of potential is flawed. We hyper fixate on this idea of ceilings and floors….what we should really focus on is likelihood of high outcome.
Some would argue that they are on ball players, tough to really define what that is like Cy said. When I did look at more objective measures like usage, about 30% of the highest usage in the NBA were <25% usage in college. So it’s more common to be a usage player when you were already a high usage player, duh….but I’d actually say that it’s a decent amount once you take away the obvious picks.
Harper and Flagg are obvious picks to be high usage guys, for example. What we really want to know is how to pick someone who is not as obvious that will become a high usage guy in the pros. Outside of the obvious, we have higher usage guys in college that aren’t as good (which makes them not obvious) or lower usage guys. There’s actually a decent split between those two groups.
seattlejazzfan
Well-Known Member
i hope the bolded wasn't directed at me. I'm always careful not to go there. i just stated a simple fact, that unless one actually watches the games, it's nearly impossible to get a grasp on what kind of defender he (or anybody) is - especially on ball defender. that's just the reality. highlights, even if they attempt to show it, will never show a complete picture of how anybody plays defense. it's not even ace bailey or prospect specific - it's just a reality that if one wants to know how a dude defends, one has to watch their games.
in short, it's not an argument - just throwing it out there as many probably don't realize just how good he is on that end and how much effort he plays with on that side of the ball. just providing information that can't adequately be captured by looking at his stats.
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"Watch the game" is a good argument btw. There's some stuff you can only see by watching games.
Fair enough, I get the impression that when you said that if you watch the games you must come away with the same conclusion you did and/or agree with the post you were replying to....but that was an overstep by me. I understood what you were saying incorrectly.
As far as the Jazz actually drafting Bailey, I don't even think it's a question on if we will draft Bailey. I'm like 95% sure they would take him at 3. But I won't start thinking a player is better simply because the Jazz draft him. It would kind of make this entire thread pointless if we're just going to warm up to everything the FO does and not make our own judgements.
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seattlejazzfan
Well-Known Member
i agree 100% with this. my comment about people warming up to him was poorly articulated.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
Jazz should be picking draft and stash in the 2nd round anyways.