Forget political mud slinging what are the precise liberal/conservative values


Harcher

Well-Known Member
Politicking is a flip-flopping, say-what-you-need-to business. It is the nature of the business. The dems have done a good job of labeling Mitt a flip flopper. And there is plenty of evidence that he has flipped. But Barack is not that different.

In the heat of battle, Obama claimed that Congress proposed the Sequester: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...651dc6a-1eed-11e2-ba31-3083ca97c314_blog.html

In case of gay marriage Obama was against it before he was for it:
https://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76109.html

In the case of Mitt Romney not having a economic/tax plan that doesn’t add up, CNN thinks similarly of Obama’s:
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/v...and_says_obamas_math_still_doesnt_add_up.html

Obama said on John Stewart (I paraphrase) regarding the Bengazi incident “We have told the American people everything we knew as it was unfolding.” (No source, but that is certainly not true and I wouldn’t even want the president (or his office) giving play-by-play.)

Now this could go on and on from both sides. One thing that is certainly a “fact” : the dems have portrayed (rightly or wrongly) that Mitt is a flopper (taking the baton from the republican primary activities.) And similar branding effort, I heard a lot in 2008, how Barack was MIA as a senator “hardly ever voting – his voting average is abysmal.” Yes that is a fact. His average is in FACT turrible. But looking at the two voting records on the web links below, you can see that with a ‘reasonable amount of fairness’ that McCain’s and Obama’s voting records are quite similar… during the time they are running for president. It was just easier to make a FACT out of Obama’s record because his spans all of 4 years. (Easier to get a crappy average.) In politics, in business, we take these nice facts and use them to our advantage.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/barack_obama/400629
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/john_mccain/300071

I find it painfully difficult to get any sort of unbiased reporting, analysis or information from any direction. But is it actually easier than I think?? Can you just make an assessment on about 5-10 or so topics and then your decision is straight forward:

Whose policies do you prefer on: Economics, Social Values, Foreign Policy

1 – Obama is or is not responsible for the lack of economic recovery
2 – Mitt Romney would be better/worse for economy
3 – You believe that lower taxes are an economic stimulus
4 – You believe that govt spending is an economic stimulus

5 – you believe that more larger/ socialistic govt is a better model than less govt

6 – you side with the liberal/conservative view of social values

Is it this simple? Which of you on the liberal side can articulate the 10 values that represent Barack Obama views and which of you on the conservative side can articulate the 10 values that represent the Mitt Romney views?

(I went to the Obama site – Romney’s has been hacked it appears. – There is only rhetoric there.)

In this thread, try not to argue the worth of the 10 values, just what are they, there are lots of other threads where you can tackle each one for its value to the American People.
 


Stoked

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
I believe less gov. is generally better. I lean towards more liberal stances on gay marriage, abortion and other social issues.
 

Siro

Well-Known Member
Contributor
2018 Award Winner
Are you talking philosophically? Conservatism is about cultural and traditional continuity, and sticking to what we find to have always worked. Liberalism is about progressively altering social norms to reflect our expanding view.

If you're talking about Republicans and Democrats, then I could not care any less.
 

Harcher

Well-Known Member
I'm asking if there is a simple summary of the fundamental platforms for romney and obama. And i'm asking a respective supporter of each side to offer that platform. Usually what happens is the other side tries to define the platform of the other: "He's just a tax and spend democrat."

Also, republicans are the conservatives and the democrats are the liberals.
 

franklin

Well-Known Member
Did someone say mud wrestling?

mud-wrestling-wrestling-wrong-demotivational-poster-1218248994.jpg
 

Nate505

Modstapo Lite
Staff member
I'm an economic moderate and a social liberal. If the libertarian party were a viable party I would be one, even though I think a handful of their policies are a bit nuts or too ideologically pure. That being said, it's always stumped me that economic and social policies are tied at the hip for some weird reason. I could never vote for most GOPers because of their opposition to gay marriage, pro life stance and massive support of the drug war, yet I think they have as many good economic ideas as the Dems do, maybe more.

As for your question(s) I'm not sure I'm understanding it completely but I'll give a stab at it:

Can you just make an assessment on about 5-10 or so topics and then your decision is straight forward:

I guess I'm most unsure on this, but I do know that I will never, ever vote for a candidate that's a gung ho drug warrior. Unfortunately for me Obama hasn't been great on that front but my hope is that he'll lighten up with a second term. I have almost no hope for Romney being anything other than the typical GOP hack drug warrior. Plus Obama generally holds the same social views that I do for the other issues (abortion, gay rights, environment).

Whose policies do you prefer on: Economics, Social Values, Foreign Policy

Economics = probably tied. Obama's nutzoid degree of spending is probably the thing I'm most irritated by him with. In general I like the idea of a balanced budget. It's how I try to run things at my house, with varying degrees of success.

Social Values = easily Obama. Romney represents everything about the GOP that I hate, be it because he really believes it or for political expediency.

Foreign Policy = probably Obama. Though I don't have any proof that Romeny will be some sort of war mongerer like Bush the 2nd was. I'm not thrilled that Obama hasn't closed Gitmo and seems to be continuting the quagmire that is Afghanistan, but I doubt he would have brought us into the places like Bush did.

1 – Obama is or is not responsible for the lack of economic recovery

I don't think he is. I don't think any President would have brought the US out of this recession in four years.

2 – Mitt Romney would be better/worse for economy

He could be better. He may actually cut spending some, if he and Congress can work together.

3 – You believe that lower taxes are an economic stimulus

Yes, though there is a fine line there. People in general like to spend money and if they aren't getting taxed they'll probably spend it on something. I know that's what I do.

4 – You believe that govt spending is an economic stimulus

It can be. I think it's a great thing when it's being used for infrastructure improvements. There's plenty of New Deal projects that are still making a positive impact on society today.

5 – you believe that more larger/ socialistic govt is a better model than less govt

No, but I think there needs to be some sort of safety net for the poor out there. It bugs me that I live in a country where people whine about some poor family getting more food stamps than they may be eligible for, yet people don't bat an eye at Wall Street getting tons of bailouts. In general though I think people should make their own decisions, and only have to rely on a minimum set of safety nets if they are foolish with their opportunities.

6 – you side with the liberal/conservative view of social values

As it was said before, I'm the furthest thing from a social conservative. I detest most social conservative philosophies. I feel a bit of shame that Focus on the Family resides in the state I'm a resident of.

Which of you on the liberal side can articulate the 10 values that represent Barack Obama views and which of you on the conservative side can articulate the 10 values that represent the Mitt Romney views?


You know, I'm not sure I could come up with 10 for either of them. Like most politicians I'm not even sure what most of them believe.
 
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One Brow

Well-Known Member
I'm usually considered one of the more liberal posters on the board.

1 – Obama is or is not responsible for the lack of economic recovery

Obama prevented the recession from being even worse.

– Mitt Romney would be better/worse for economy

Current projections are that we will add 12 million or so new jobs in the next 4 years, under either candidate's proposals. So, a tie here.

3 – You believe that lower taxes are an economic stimulus

When people are paying 50+% of their income in taxes, often. When they are paying under 35%, rarely.

4 – You believe that govt spending is an economic stimulus

Some spending is a better stimulus than other types. Food stamps give a lot of short-term bang-for-the-buck, infrastructure is good for long-term stimulus.

5 – you believe that more larger/ socialistic govt is a better model than less govt

It's more important to leave to government what private industry does poorly, or finds a hindrance, than to say government needs to be big or small. From what I can tell, taking the responsibility for health insurance away from employers would actually be beneficial to employers, and this could be done while maintaining some benefits you get from a health insurance industry (see Germany and Denmark for examples).

6 – you side with the liberal/conservative view of social values

Mostly liberal social values.

Is it this simple? Which of you on the liberal side can articulate the 10 values that represent Barack Obama views and which of you on the conservative side can articulate the 10 values that represent the Mitt Romney views?

They're both politicians, they value whatever will win them votes best.
 

SaltyDawg

Well-Known Member
Whose policies do you prefer on: Economics, Social Values, Foreign Policy
I prefer Obama's, but that really isn't saying much. They really need to let more than 2 candidates in the debates. I'd probably prefer several of the 3rd party candidates to either of these guys.

1 – Obama is or is not responsible for the lack of economic recovery
Definitely not responsible. The Senate republican leader (Mitch McConnell) is on video saying their #1 priority was to make Obama a 1 term president. They then went on to have a record number of filibusters. Had they passed Obama's jobs bill, which would have rebuilt a lot of our nation's infrastructure, the recovery would have been a lot better.

2 – Mitt Romney would be better/worse for economy
Worse. His trickle down economics would only create jobs overseas. Obama wants to give tax breaks to companies that bring jobs back to the states, and tax hikes on companies that outsource.

3 – You believe that lower taxes are an economic stimulus
Sometimes. If you're rich, and sitting on millions that are just collecting interest, getting a few bucks extra is probably not a stimulus. But if you're living paycheck to paycheck, getting a few extra bucks will probably be spent in a store.

4 – You believe that govt spending is an economic stimulus
Sometimes. I don't think government sending billions to Egypt, Israel, Pakistan, etc, is an economic stimulus. But I do believe spending money to rebuild roads and bridges is definitely an economic stimulus.


5 – you believe that more larger/ socialistic govt is a better model than less govt
It depends. I think it's better to have regulations that prevent companies from dumping toxic waste in residential neighborhoods, or selling food with toxic chemicals in it to school children. But I think it's worse to have the government telling us tax paying adults the drugs we can or can't smoke/grow in our own houses.

6 – you side with the liberal/conservative view of social values
Liberal, definitely. I think everyone should be able to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt anybody else. And I think everyone should have health care, social security, and if they come upon hard times, food stamps.

Is it this simple? Which of you on the liberal side can articulate the 10 values that represent Barack Obama views and which of you on the conservative side can articulate the 10 values that represent the Mitt Romney views?
To be clear, Obama is NOT a liberal. He's just a better choice than Romney for liberals. He presented a republican health care plan when liberals (and even some conservatives) wanted single payer. He caved on net neutrality and let wireless companies have an exception, when liberals wanted a full net neutrality for all providers. He had refused to apply the Carter phone rule to wireless carriers (it currently requires any landline provider to let you use your own phone that you bought from anywhere else add long as it will work on the network, but wireless carriers don't have the same requirement). And he has been just as hung ho as Bush (even more) about raiding legal medical marijuana dispensaries. Say what you want about him, but he's definitely not a liberal. Real liberals were actually wanting him to have to win the nomination in a primary so we could get a real liberal in there.
 

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