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Gordon Hayward and the 2015 Draft

GVC

Well-Known Member
2 part question:


1. What's the difference in wins between the following two lineups next season?

Lineup A
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Marvin/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum

Lineup B
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Hayward/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum


2. How good is the 2015 draft? Given your answer to part 1, how much better would the Jazz's pick be next season? If Hayward gets $14mm+, is he worth more than the cap space and the better pick next season?
 
Hmm, the second part of that is hard to answer. To me it would depend on what the FO is going for. Tank or wins. Whatever they do they need to go all in.

Part 1: I say 5-7 more wins.

Part 2: I say that drops the Jazz roughly 2 spots. So from maybe the 7th to 9th pick. No idea if that is worth it or not because I do not know the strength or depth of the draft. Also 14 is very steep for me. I'd much rather the Jazz sign hayward to 10-12 million.

I just don't know.
 
If your talking about the lottery selections or near by, the strengths of the 2015 draft appear to be 2 positions of need for the Jazz;

Defensive minded SF's and 7 footers.

Stanley Johnson will go top 5 barring injury, hes monstrously strong for a Freshman, can shoot and drive too.
Justice Winslow and Rondae Hollis Jefferson both should be in the range of lottery picks, both have shooting issues but are freak athletes and noted rebounders and defenders.
Mario Hezonja will go top 10 for sure, he has plenty of defensive capability though hes a bit of a gambler at this point, Its rumored hes grown to 6'8".
Kelly Oubre is also a wildcard hes a 6'7 lefty with a 7'2 Wingspan, he made a massive rise up the rankings last year all the way to being projected 12th in DX's mock.

The 7'ers are Karl Towns, Okafor's 6'11 but hes 270 so im listing him here, Kristaps Porzingis, Willie Cauley Stein, and possibly Myles Turner and Illimane Diop, (possibly Nikola Milutinov)

After the teens though, from what it looks like to me, there's a steep decline in talent. (though i do still have some players i like in that range, theyre few and far between)

The projected 2nd rounders are a joke compared to this year, most of them are players who dropped out of previous drafts. Mamadou Jaiteh for example is projected as the 29th pick in DX's mock, he wasn't even a top 40 player (and dropped out of) the 2013 draft.
 
2 part question:


1. What's the difference in wins between the following two lineups next season?

Lineup A
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Marvin/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum

Lineup B
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Hayward/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum


2. How good is the 2015 draft? Given your answer to part 1, how much better would the Jazz's pick be next season? If Hayward gets $14mm+, is he worth more than the cap space and the better pick next season?
I say probably 3 wins difference.

5 tops
 
2 part question:


1. What's the difference in wins between the following two lineups next season?

Lineup A
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Marvin/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum

Lineup B
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Hayward/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum


2. How good is the 2015 draft? Given your answer to part 1, how much better would the Jazz's pick be next season? If Hayward gets $14mm+, is he worth more than the cap space and the better pick next season?

I think this is a great question. Unless Kanter, Burks, and Burke make huge improvements on offense, Hayward will not be worth 14million this coming year, and maybe not the following year. If there comes a time that Stoping Hayward isn't the answer to beating the jazz, he'll be able to get more spot ups, and not have to rush to get his shot away, he can be very deadly in the make up of the team.

I don't know much of anything about the 2015 draft, but to answer your question... The jazz will be much worse without Hayward. To me Williams isn't a starter and Hood is a rookie. I like Burks, but is he ready to be the go to guy and handle the pressure that comes with that? I really couldn't answer if it would or wouldn't be worth letting Hayward walk, because I know nothing about next years draft prospects, but I do think Hayward could be a perfect 3rd option for this team if certain players develop. Like Exum becoming a star, and Burks and or Kanter improving, and Burke and Favors being reliable.
 
No idea about #2 but I'll trust PGAB (shouldn't he be wheeling and dealing on the exchange though? the bell rang over two hours ago?) and his comments here.

Regarding #1, I'd say 3-4 wins which is probably a couple spots in the draft.

I would have also considered adding #3. If we do sign Hayward to that 14M figure, how movable is he?
 
I think the Jazz would be making a mistake if they try to tank for too long. At least the way they tanked under Corbin last year. I think it is demoralizing for the players, and creates a culture of indifference. The Jazz should have tried harder to lock up Hayward last year.

Going in as a RFA, of course there is a large chance that he will get overpaid. Any other team that makes an offer to him will make it very large to deter the Jazz from matching. It is simply how the system is designed. If Hayward was an UFA, we might lose him to a team/destination he prefers, but I guarantee he would not be getting a max offer from any team.
 
I think the Jazz would be making a mistake if they try to tank for too long. At least the way they tanked under Corbin last year. I think it is demoralizing for the players, and creates a culture of indifference. The Jazz should have tried harder to lock up Hayward last year.

Going in as a RFA, of course there is a large chance that he will get overpaid. Any other team that makes an offer to him will make it very large to deter the Jazz from matching. It is simply how the system is designed. If Hayward was an UFA, we might lose him to a team/destination he prefers, but I guarantee he would not be getting a max offer from any team.

They did make Hayward an offer last year. He and his agent turned it down. And that in and of itself does not mean it was not a fair offer. It could've been good.
 
2 part question:


1. What's the difference in wins between the following two lineups next season?

Lineup A
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Marvin/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum

Lineup B
4/5: Favors/Kanter/Evans/Gobert
3: Hayward/Hood
1/2: Burke/Burks/Exum


2. How good is the 2015 draft? Given your answer to part 1, how much better would the Jazz's pick be next season? If Hayward gets $14mm+, is he worth more than the cap space and the better pick next season?

First of all: I think this is a very good question.

If you look at flat numbers:

Hayward: 12/13 - 5,4 WS - 0,123 WS/48
13/14 - 3,6 WS - 0,062 WS/48
Williams: 11/12 - 4,9 WS - 0,156 WS/48 (Atlanta)
12/13 - 2,3 WS - 0,063 WS/48
13/14 - 2,9 WS - 0,084 WS/48

That would suggest they're less than 1 win apart. If you look at the bigger picture, I think Marvin is a lower usage player 16.7% vs Gordon's 23.1%. These possessions would go to other players.

This could result in other players making more out of these opportunities if Gordon's last year performance is the benchmark or less if you look at the year before that.

Then you have to factor in a new coach and the whole thing is getting very messy. There is a lot of noise in this data because Hayward's career has been a roller coaster ride production and efficiency wise so far.

My non statistics view on the thing is I don't think Hayward over Marv is bringing you more than 1 extra win, unless Hayward is a go to guy like last year but with 12/13 scoring efficiency. Then he'll bring more wins, but also worth the money that other teams vow to throw at him.

I hope the Jazz match no matter what the number is. It does no harm and his next contract won't include delusional talk about his potential upside, when he's 28(The same year that Exum's extension would kick in)

If your talking about the lottery selections or near by, the strengths of the 2015 draft appear to be 2 positions of need for the Jazz;

Defensive minded SF's and 7 footers.

Stanley Johnson will go top 5 barring injury, hes monstrously strong for a Freshman, can shoot and drive too.
Justice Winslow and Rondae Hollis Jefferson both should be in the range of lottery picks, both have shooting issues but are freak athletes and noted defenders.
Mario Hezonja will go top 10 for sure, he has plenty of defensive capability though hes a bit of a gambler at this point, Its rumored hes grown to 6'8".
Kelly Oubre is also a wildcard hes a 6'7 lefty with a 7'2 Wingspan, he made a massive rise up the rankings last year all the way to being projected 12th in DX's mock.

The 7'ers are Karl Towns, Okafor's 6'11 but hes 270 so im listing him here, Kristaps Porzingis, Willie Cauley Stein, and possibly Myles Turner and Illimane Diop.

After the teens though, from what it looks like to me theres a steep decline in talent. (though i do still have some players i like in that range, theyre few and far between)

The projected 2nd rounders are a joke compared to this year, most of them are players who dropped out of previous drafts. Mamadou Jaiteh for example is projected as the 29th pick in DX's mock, he wasn't even a top 40 player (and dropped out of) the 2012 draft.

The 2015 and 2016 drafts are strong in big man talent - Which is why the Joel Embiid pick really surprised me. Unless Philly has some weird trade and free agency plans they'll have to tank until 2017 to get a real good guard/wing prospect. Also the next drafts don't seem to contain wing guys that are both athletic and can shoot.

I don't agree with PGAB here. Stanley Johnson is the guy of next year that intrigued me a lot. And his shooting is inefficient, his shot selection is poor, overal BBIQ is questionable and his mechanics need polishing. If he doesn't improve over this summer, weaknesses will be unfolded this fall when college teams dare Arizona to shoot.(Edit: I want to add that it's certain lineups where spacing might be pooor. And you'll see the Johnson + Hollis-Jefferson + Tarczewski lineups)

Next year's guys that I'm really high on are Towns and Okafor. Okafor is smaller than estimated a couple years ago, but he's Al Jefferson who's more reflective worst case.
Towns might develop into a guy that's really altering defensive schemes of opposite teams. Rare skillset for someone his size. Not unique, but rare.

I really like the 7-15 range in next year's draft. The overload of talent lead to a lot of guys attending an extra college year to go higher then or improve their games and change front offices opinions about them. I think 7-15 will be as strong as this year's. A lot of talent, some experience, a lot of very talented international guys who may or may not break out in the Spanish league next season. I think the Spanish league might be more interesting than some college conferences next year.
 
You think they will play Marvin at the 3 if they sign him or as a stretch 4?

It might be harder to replace Haywards 16 points than just using Marvin and Hood, keep in mind there are other players that we will need to replace their points and add more as well.
He also added some decent rebounding,assists, etc... so it's not just points.
I do only think the win differential with him vs without him would be around 5.
Let's be real, this team is not going to the playoffs and it's not likely they will be the Pheonix of last year. (would be nice though)

I don't know much about next years draft, so I won't comment on that other than to state that we can't continually rely on high draft picks to get better. If Exum doesn't turn into a legit all star then last year was a waste. We can't try that again with a new coach and "better" players and expect a better pick than 5.

The only way Hayward is moveable at 14+ mil/year is if he truly does get better. If he does everything else the same but hits close to 40% of his 3's he will be easy to move... but if he did that we wouldn't want to.
 
GVC, you really neg me for saying "wut"? You put your tampon in sideways this morning or what?
 
Good thread. I think we need to remember that the Hayward signing would not be about next year, or even too much about the next, but about the team that will be contending in a few years.

Give them time to gel and get experience together. I think that makes the case for keeping him, even with a bit of an overpay, much stronger.
 
They did make Hayward an offer last year. He and his agent turned it down. And that in and of itself does not mean it was not a fair offer. It could've been good.

I know they did. But DL should have been able to look ahead just as easy as Hayward's agent did. I have a feeling they could have paid him close to what he wanted and struck a deal and saved $ compared to what he is going to get offered now.

Not to mention if he was under contract we could have used him for potential trades during the draft.
 
I know they did. But DL should have been able to look ahead just as easy as Hayward's agent did. I have a feeling they could have paid him close to what he wanted and struck a deal and saved $ compared to what he is going to get offered now.

Not to mention if he was under contract we could have used him for potential trades during the draft.

Maybe he doesn't want to be here and his hope was hed gets a max offer sheet and we wouldn't match.


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Maybe he doesn't want to be here and his hope was hed gets a max offer sheet and we wouldn't match.


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Maybe, and if I were him I would have been unhappy last year too. From my perspective, he'd have a much better chance of having a good career in Utah compared with Cleveland. Plus who wants to live in Cleveland?
 
Maybe, and if I were him I would have been unhappy last year too. From my perspective, he'd have a much better chance of having a good career in Utah compared with Cleveland. Plus who wants to live in Cleveland?

Hayward cares about money a lot so even though he says it's an awful place to play, he'll go there if they pay him. So to answer your question, Hayward does.

And I'm not sure why he had the right to be unhappy last year. Jazz gave him a green light to be the guy and he was worse. He sulked and he sucked and somehow that was proof enough to other teams that he deserves a max...


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