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The Thriller said:
Both have governments which are becoming increasingly nativist (xenophobic), anti-west, and authoritarian. Thats not concerning to you?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...fcebd6-02f9-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/02/05/hungary-and-poland-arent-democratic-theyre-authoritarian/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/who-is...r-trump-meeting-white-house-today-2019-05-13/
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What is wrong with the attitude to keep your nation as strong as possible? Poland and Hungary have both learned in the hard way, what it means to the nation, when you are too soft (Poland during WW2, Hungary in addition knows what happens when you have too many muslim people in your country). As you are a teacher - don't you what muslims have done in Hungary? Or is the ransacking of Budapest by Turks a fake history?
IMHO because Poland is BIG compared to most of the countries in Europe, then of course it has somewhat a MPGA attitude (Make Poland Great Again). I visited Poland first in 1997 (and of course later too several times) - it has changed quite a lot since that time. And Poland as an anti West country - IMHO Poland is quite an important market to West companies (should you visit Poland then you see) and West is also important to Poland workforce therefore i do not see in the near future, that Poland will have a happy union with a Russia.
I agree with you that Hungary during the Orban times is getting too close with relationship with Russia. Probably because it is a smaller country, little bit poorer than other central European countries (it is quite visible when you drive through the Baltics, then Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and finally Croatia. Except the Budapest, everything in countryside of Hungary looks not so … fresh?
And IMHO you are wrong if you think that other BIG European and world nations do not have the we-are-the-best attitude. Just visit France, Spain, Italy or Germany. Or China or Japan in Asia. IMHO nothing wrong with that. Some of them are just more violent.
 
lauriandres said:
What is wrong with the attitude to keep your nation as strong as possible? Poland and Hungary have both learned in the hard way, what it means to the nation, when you are too soft (Poland during WW2, Hungary in addition knows what happens when you have too many muslim people in your country). As you are a teacher - don't you what muslims have done in Hungary? Or is the ransacking of Budapest by Turks a fake history?
IMHO because Poland is BIG compared to most of the countries in Europe, then of course it has somewhat a MPGA attitude (Make Poland Great Again). I visited Poland first in 1997 (and of course later too several times) - it has changed quite a lot since that time. And Poland as an anti West country - IMHO Poland is quite an important market to West companies (should you visit Poland then you see) and West is also important to Poland workforce therefore i do not see in the near future, that Poland will have a happy union with a Russia.
I agree with you that Hungary during the Orban times is getting too close with relationship with Russia. Probably because it is a smaller country, little bit poorer than other central European countries (it is quite visible when you drive through the Baltics, then Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and finally Croatia. Except the Budapest, everything in countryside of Hungary looks not so … fresh?
And IMHO you are wrong if you think that other BIG European and world nations do not have the we-are-the-best attitude. Just visit France, Spain, Italy or Germany. Or China or Japan in Asia. IMHO nothing wrong with that. Some of them are just more violent.
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Oof...

Yikes

Hope this is just a spoof account from either babe, hack, or heathme.
 
The Thriller said:
Oof...

Yikes

Hope this is just a spoof account from either babe, hack, or heathme.
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Well, at least i got already the corners covered :-). Waiting for the diagonals.
I have to say that the answers of the leftist parties to similar problems in Estonia are kind of similar. I.e nationalism is bad, we should have more different nations in Estonia, Hungary and Poland are BAD, there should be songs in russian language in the main folk song festival ( https://2019.laulupidu.ee/en/ ) etc etc.
 
lauriandres said:
Well, at least i got already the corners covered :). Waiting for the diagonals.
I have to say that the answers of the leftist parties to similar problems in Estonia are kind of similar. I.e nationalism is bad, we should have more different nations in Estonia, Hungary and Poland are BAD, there should be songs in russian language in the main folk song festival ( https://2019.laulupidu.ee/en/ ) etc etc.
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In your opinion, what is nationalism? What’s the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

Why is nationalism good? Why might it not be good?
 
The Thriller said:
In your opinion, what is nationalism? What’s the difference between nationalism and patriotism?

Why is nationalism good? Why might it not be good?
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I can be a proud patriot (i.e obeying its law) of country which provides me a shelter during the bad times and i can still be proud of my nationality.
Similar to those Estonias who escape when the Soviet terror started and found a new home in Sweden, USA, Canada or Australia.
They became the citizens of the new countries but still were proud of their nationality (founded local enclaves, tried to establish locals schools were they taught Estonian language etc. Many of them came back to Estonia to at least visit the graves of their ancestors when the Soviet union collapsed.

Although there is proverb that a favourite food of an Estonian person is another person then i seriously doubt that we as a small nation have mentality similar for a serbians or hutus. I.e even if the local law would permit to kill a somebody who is not an estonian without any problems - i assume, that 99,99% of our nation wouldn't behave that way. Unlike serbians or hutus … (Srebrenica massacre and Rwanda genocide). Or maybe i am wrong maybe those who performed the massacres (gave orders and pulled the triggers) are already behind the bars or living a very lonely life assuming that for ordinary serbians it is big no-no to just kill somebody who belongs to a different nation.

I am not a fan to live in a melting pot where the nations are all mixed and you can not distinguish between different nations. Of course, never say never - if another option is to live in region where a bigger nation will just eliminate you when giving the opportunity and resistant is futile, then of course i have to accept other conditions. In the grand scheme of things - the most important is that the life of my child and wife is OK.
 
lauriandres said:
I can be a proud patriot (i.e obeying its law) of country which provides me a shelter during the bad times and i can still be proud of my nationality.
Similar to those Estonias who escape when the Soviet terror started and found a new home in Sweden, USA, Canada or Australia.
They became the citizens of the new countries but still were proud of their nationality (founded local enclaves, tried to establish locals schools were they taught Estonian language etc. Many of them came back to Estonia to at least visit the graves of their ancestors when the Soviet union collapsed.

Although there is proverb that a favourite food of an Estonian person is another person then i seriously doubt that we as a small nation have mentality similar for a serbians or hutus. I.e even if the local law would permit to kill a somebody who is not an estonian without any problems - i assume, that 99,99% of our nation wouldn't behave that way. Unlike serbians or hutus … (Srebrenica massacre and Rwanda genocide). Or maybe i am wrong maybe those who performed the massacres (gave orders and pulled the triggers) are already behind the bars or living a very lonely life assuming that for ordinary serbians it is big no-no to just kill somebody who belongs to a different nation.

I am not a fan to live in a melting pot where the nations are all mixed and you can not distinguish between different nations. Of course, never say never - if another option is to live in region where a bigger nation will just eliminate you when giving the opportunity and resistant is futile, then of course i have to accept other conditions. In the grand scheme of things - the most important is that the life of my child and wife is OK.
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Ok so I didn’t read your entire post but just off the first paragraph I can tell you that you’re conflating patriotism and nationalism. That’s a big mistake.

What the two leaders of Poland and Hungary have done over the past few years isn’t patriotic. It’s nationalistic. Both of these leaders have crushed the free press, packed the courts full of loyalists, taken control of the education system, and have crushed the rights of immigrants and minorities (racial and religious) all under the guise of nationalism.

This would be considered by most people to be bad. Why don’t you?
 
lauriandres said:
Thriller, what is wrong with Poland and Hungary? I suspect that you have not even visited those during the last 5 years?
I have visited Poland and Hungary in 2015, 2016, 2017 and in july 2019. What kind of civil rights are hammered? Or is it bad if a country and its people value more local traditional family life compared to the lifestyle which popular and heavily promoted in some other countries. Hungary and Poland have a long history of romas whose lifestyle is what it is and i guess that even you would not want to have a home near the roma camp.
Of course, because Poland is BIG compared to Baltics, then sometimes the supervisors from Poland who are bosses for the daugthercompanies in Estonia kind of annoying for local workers.
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Oh boy..from gun control to discussing situation in Poland..
But if you insist.. Party of Kaczynski:
- violated the constitution by replacing the judges of the Constitunal Tribunal against the existing rules. And they are actively trying to get control of the courts of law.
- the public tv channel has reached the level of propaganda unseen since the comunist period, it has really become ridicoulous and closer to North Korea than civilised standards
- ruined the relations with pretty much everyone in European Union thus isolating itself from any decision making on the european level
- is turning blind eye on actions taken by far right groups. They are not actively supporting it but they create the climate in which those groups start to do things they didn't dare before: physically attacking peaceful Pride demonstrations, commiting antisemitic acts etc.
- trying to rewrite the history of the fall od comunnism in Poland (Kaczynski was of little role in that processus so he plays hero now) and denying any black episodes during the II WW
- weakening the army and many important cultural institutions
- financing and supporting the most radical and backwarded wing of the Polish Catholic Church
This party is popular because:
- gave social benefits to families - 100 euros for a child (starting from a second one) per month. It s a great voting bribe.
- plays anti immigration card. I agree that western Europe has a serious problems with Arab population. But it's imaginary problem for Poland - it never had any colonies, there is no Arab population in Poland. And even if EU will force it to accomodate some refugees from the Middle East they will run away to the West as soon as they can because of: difficult language, climate, low salaries and very hostile society.
Look, I can understand that people have conservative views and respect that but the party of Kaczynski is just the biggest assembly of idiots Poland has ever seen in its long history.
 
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lauriandres said:
Thriller, what is wrong with Poland and Hungary? I suspect that you have not even visited those during the last 5 years?
I have visited Poland and Hungary in 2015, 2016, 2017 and in july 2019. What kind of civil rights are hammered? Or is it bad if a country and its people value more local traditional family life compared to the lifestyle which popular and heavily promoted in some other countries. Hungary and Poland have a long history of romas whose lifestyle is what it is and i guess that even you would not want to have a home near the roma camp.
Of course, because Poland is BIG compared to Baltics, then sometimes the supervisors from Poland who are bosses for the daugthercompanies in Estonia kind of annoying for local workers.
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If you want to know which civil rights are being hammered, you could read those 3 articles I provided. Let me know when you finish reading them.
 
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