Hayward's Woes

[candrew]

The Boozer thing was shady. He would have made like $700k if the team had exercised their option. Pelinka asked them to not exercise the option and in return Boozer would sign the mid-level exception (like $40M over 6 IIRC). Cavs couldn't really admit to that as it could result in tampering. So yeah, Booze was about the $$$, but that was a shady deal. I remember joking to a buddy that the Jazz should sign Boozer to a big contract after the team picked up the offer. Surprised when it actually happened.

Hayward was a free agent and made a decision. He went about it really poorly, and ultimately made a bad choice, but IMO, the Boozer thing was much dirtier.

Thanks, I remember the controversy I just didn't remember the exact details and wasn't that inclined to look it up.

 

[JAZZGASM]

Thanks, I remember the controversy I just didn't remember the exact details and wasn't that inclined to look it up.

I didn't look it up, so I could be wrong on some of the details, but that is what I remember. At the same time, from a different viewpoint, Boozer would have been eligible for even more if he played his final year. So in some ways, the Cavs were trying to take $ out of his pocket too. But I have to think that they would have picked up his cheap option unless his agent or Boozer went to the Cavs with the idea. It was bad all around.

 

[framer]

I didn't look it up, so I could be wrong on some of the details, but that is what I remember. At the same time, from a different viewpoint, Boozer would have been eligible for even more if he played his final year. So in some ways, the Cavs were trying to take $ out of his pocket too. But I have to think that they would have picked up his cheap option unless his agent or Boozer went to the Cavs with the idea. It was bad all around.

The Cavs we're shady as well. They wanted Booz on a long term team friendly contract rather than one more year for peanuts. They took the chance that by releasing him, they could get that long term deal done.

Their real problem is that they had Boozer slotted as a roleplayer, and they were stupidly pointed about that in their negotiations. Their never dreamed that anyone would consider Boozer a featured player. The money AND the chance to slide into the Malone role in the Jazz offense was more than Cleveland could compete with. Had Cleveland, during that period, sold him on being a cornerstone of the franchise, things definitely could have been different.

Jazz made the same mistake with Wesley Matthews.

 

[JimLes]

I have come to firmly believe that Boozer fiasco changed the course of the NBA as we know it. For all his issues, Boozer was a legit stud, a 20-10 player in his prime and an All-NBA 3rd team player. His advanced numbers around the time he was an All-Star easily confirm he was a top 15 player in the league. His last season in Cleveland was also LeBron's first. Had he stayed with Cleveland, LeBron might have never left. I think 2009 season was particularly important here. LeBron dragged a team of scrubs to 66(sixty-six!) wins only to lose to Dwight and the Magic in the Eastern finals. I am now sure that's when LeBron decided to bolt and go to Miami with his buddies. We all remember how he wouldn't shake Dwight's hand and how pissed he seemed in the aftermath.

You have to remember they were starting Anderson Varejao at this point. A then-Carlos Boozer would've been a huge upgrade on Varejao. Hell, as crazy as it sounds, they probably win 70+ games with him. They would've knocked out Magic, and they would've had home court against Kobe and the Lakers. It's not a given, but I think with Boozer they have a decent chance of winning. And if they do win 70+ in the regular season and then the championship, I think LeBron never leaves Cleveland. The last 10 years of NBA look completely different.

So while you don't feel bad for either the Jazz or Boozer or Cleveland in this situation because everyone was kind of being shady, you have to think the person who got ****ed over the most here was actually LeBron. His legacy would've been even greater now had he won in 2009 and stayed in Cleveland.

 

[framer]

I have come to firmly believe that Boozer fiasco changed the course of the NBA as we know it. For all his issues, Boozer was a legit stud, a 20-10 player in his prime and an All-NBA 3rd team player. His advanced numbers around the time he was an All-Star easily confirm he was a top 15 player in the league. His last season in Cleveland was also LeBron's first. Had he stayed with Cleveland, LeBron might have never left. I think 2009 season was particularly important here. LeBron dragged a team of scrubs to 66(sixty-six!) wins only to lose to Dwight and the Magic in the Eastern finals. I am now sure that's when LeBron decided to bolt and go to Miami with his buddies. We all remember how he wouldn't shake Dwight's hand and how pissed he seemed in the aftermath.

You have to remember they were starting Anderson Varejao at this point. A then-Carlos Boozer would've been a huge upgrade on Varejao. Hell, as crazy as it sounds, they probably win 70+ games with him. They would've knocked out Magic, and they would've had home court against Kobe and the Lakers. It's not a given, but I think with Boozer they have a decent chance of winning. And if they do win 70+ in the regular season and then the championship, I think LeBron never leaves Cleveland. The last 10 years of NBA look completely different.

So while you don't feel bad for either the Jazz or Boozer or Cleveland in this situation because everyone was kind of being shady, you have to think the person who got ****ed over the most here was actually LeBron. His legacy would've been even greater now had he won in 2009 and stayed in Cleveland.

Lebron can get bent.

 

[framer]

I have come to firmly believe that Boozer fiasco changed the course of the NBA as we know it. For all his issues, Boozer was a legit stud, a 20-10 player in his prime and an All-NBA 3rd team player. His advanced numbers around the time he was an All-Star easily confirm he was a top 15 player in the league. His last season in Cleveland was also LeBron's first. Had he stayed with Cleveland, LeBron might have never left. I think 2009 season was particularly important here. LeBron dragged a team of scrubs to 66(sixty-six!) wins only to lose to Dwight and the Magic in the Eastern finals. I am now sure that's when LeBron decided to bolt and go to Miami with his buddies. We all remember how he wouldn't shake Dwight's hand and how pissed he seemed in the aftermath.

You have to remember they were starting Anderson Varejao at this point. A then-Carlos Boozer would've been a huge upgrade on Varejao. Hell, as crazy as it sounds, they probably win 70+ games with him. They would've knocked out Magic, and they would've had home court against Kobe and the Lakers. It's not a given, but I think with Boozer they have a decent chance of winning. And if they do win 70+ in the regular season and then the championship, I think LeBron never leaves Cleveland. The last 10 years of NBA look completely different.

So while you don't feel bad for either the Jazz or Boozer or Cleveland in this situation because everyone was kind of being shady, you have to think the person who got ****ed over the most here was actually LeBron. His legacy would've been even greater now had he won in 2009 and stayed in Cleveland.

The problem that you have is that Boozer doesn't become that all star if he stays in Cleveland. They used him, and continued to want to use him as a role player. With Lebron he was never going to be featured. You can't just add his Utah stats to the Cavs. Boozer needed a lot of touches and endless pick and roll opportunities to get to 20 and 10. He was never getting that opportunity in Cleveland. He would have been used exactly as they used Drew Gooden (who wasn't a slouch.)

 

[JimLes]

The problem that you have is that Boozer doesn't become that all star if he stays in Cleveland. They used him, and continued to want to use him as a role player. With Lebron he was never going to be featured. You can't just add his Utah stats to the Cavs. Boozer needed a lot of touches and endless pick and roll opportunities to get to 20 and 10. He was never getting that opportunity in Cleveland. He would have been used exactly as they used Drew Gooden (who wasn't a slouch.)

But Boozer had put up 15-11 before he signed with the Jazz. That's a bit better than Gooden ever did. His usage that season was 20%. He'd get up to about 25% with the Jazz, but Gooden was around 11-12% while with the Cavs. You're really selling Boozer short if you think he'd be a Drew Gooden. The Cavs' front office was stupid, but they weren't that stupid. Boozer was a damn good player, and exactly the kind of player they needed next to LeBron, a homegrown borderline-star. Worst case scenario, a 27-year old Boozer would've been a much better trade asset than what they were able to scrounge up every summer when they tried to pull a blockbuster to get James some help.

 

[framer]

But Boozer had put up 15-11 before he signed with the Jazz. That's a bit better than Gooden ever did. His usage that season was 20%. He'd get up to about 25% with the Jazz, but Gooden was around 11-12% while with the Cavs. You're really selling Boozer short if you think he'd be a Drew Gooden. The Cavs' front office was stupid, but they weren't that stupid. Boozer was a damn good player, and exactly the kind of player they needed next to LeBron, a homegrown borderline-star. Worst case scenario, a 27-year old Boozer would've been a much better trade asset than what they were able to scrounge up every summer when they tried to pull a blockbuster to get James some help.

See that is a solid point, all of this is probably meaningless because the Cavs would have auctioned off Boozer for the latest flavor of the month to put next to LeGM.

Boozer was better than Gooden, no doubt, but I also think Gooden was better than the role he was thrust into in Cleveland. LeBron does crazy things to team dynamics, and this became more pronounced as LeBron got older. I think LeBron coexisted with Wade because that was Wade's team and city, he had no choice. Bosh was kind of wasted (although he was a good luxury.) LeBron is bad at sharing.

Also, Boozer was not a "borderline star." Before his injuries has was a star and actually deserved more accolades that what he received.

 

[fishonjazz]

See that is a solid point, all of this is probably meaningless because the Cavs would have auctioned off Boozer for the latest flavor of the month to put next to LeGM.

Boozer was better than Gooden, no doubt, but I also think Gooden was better than the role he was thrust into in Cleveland. LeBron does crazy things to team dynamics, and this became more pronounced as LeBron got older. I think LeBron coexisted with Wade because that was Wade's team and city, he had no choice. Bosh was kind of wasted (although he was a good luxury.) LeBron is bad at sharing.

Also, Boozer was not a "borderline star." Before his injuries has was a star and actually deserved more accolades that what he received.

LeBron is bad at sharing? As opposed to what other star offensive player?
Any stats to back up that claim? For his career he averages 7.2 assists per game. Is that more or less than other superstars like Kobe, Durant, Steph, Westbrook, kahwi, harden, AD, etc?
He averages 19.6 shots per game. Again is that more or less than the other superstars.

Then, once we have that info, you have to ask yourself if you would rather have other, less efficient, players taking those shots and handling the ball. LeBron is always very efficient.

Lastly, did any of his teammates from his first stint in Cleveland break out big time after LeBron left? Did that team get better or worse? How about his Miami team? His second time around at Cleveland? Now that he has been out with injury in LA are his teammates looking way better with him not there to screw up the team dynamic? Have the Lakers been winning at a better clip while he has been injured?

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[Kyoto]

Question: do you think that Hayward's difficulties are due to the injury or do you consider him an overrated player?

Oh hell, Haywood was always a beta. He never wanted the ball late in the 4th, he always played so passive. I never thought he was a max player. Mabey a good 3rd option on a good team but that's it. The Jazz made him the focal point of their offense but barely broke 20ppg. Good riddance.

 

[LifeOnaPlate]

hehe

I honestly don't think members of the Utah fanbase would be yelling at an injury-recovering player like this.

 

[LifeOnaPlate]

Overpaid regardless IMHO. He's the 6th best paid player in the league, but he's not the 6th best player. Still, for a team like the Jazz, that's probably what you have to do to keep your all-star calibre players.

I guess the silver lining there is that a big market team like BOS had to pay him too much to get him from us, even though they paid slightly less than Utah would have. The real problem is the KD situation where guys take less than they are worth to form superteams in supermarkets.

 

[elan_prodigy]

During the whole saga, I almost got the feeling that Boston was just as interested in "stealing" a player than they were about the player himself. I get it. I never really felt sorry for Cleveland losing Boozer. It was a pretty cool thing to have a top grade free agent choose the Jazz over another organization. Haywood choosing them validated them as an organization. I think less thought went into "what exactly player are we getting" and "how does this help us win the East?"

Even at the time, during the conversations with Celtic fans on Reddit, the point was made, why not throw some resources to get Paul George, Butler, or Cousins who are better players? You have the resources to get the best, get the best. "Nope, because we can get Hayward for free and keep our resources!" Like a max salary cap slot isn't a "resource."

It was like totally redesigning the décor of your living room to match the lamp you got a deal on at the yard sale, then discovering the lamp only works with a European power output. for $10 more you could have got a better lamp, that worked with everything you already had, and would be fully functional.

Couldn't happen to a nicer fanbase.

A MAX salary spot is a resource but they were looking at Hayward as the asset, which they were getting for free.

Could of Flip him for expirings and picks, opening up the MAX spot again while adding multiple 1sts...

 

[elan_prodigy]

MJ would not be the false idol MJ he is today if Len Bias had played in the NBA. Very good chance that the discontinued Nike Revolution would have fallen into Len's lap instead of MJ's.

Idiot.

 

[elan_prodigy]

LeBron is bad at sharing? As opposed to what other star offensive player?
Any stats to back up that claim? For his career he averages 7.2 assists per game. Is that more or less than other superstars like Kobe, Durant, Steph, Westbrook, kahwi, harden, AD, etc?
He averages 19.6 shots per game. Again is that more or less than the other superstars.

Then, once we have that info, you have to ask yourself if you would rather have other, less efficient, players taking those shots and handling the ball. LeBron is always very efficient.

Lastly, did any of his teammates from his first stint in Cleveland break out big time after LeBron left? Did that team get better or worse? How about his Miami team? His second time around at Cleveland? Now that he has been out with injury in LA are his teammates looking way better with him not there to screw up the team dynamic? Have the Lakers been winning at a better clip while he has been injured?

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You just argued 2 opposing points.

But I agree with one of them, Lebron doesnt make his teammates better. If they aren't better when hes not there how exactly have they gotten better?

 

[fishonjazz]

You just argued 2 opposing points.

But I agree with one of them, Lebron doesnt make his teammates better. If they aren't better when hes not there how exactly have they gotten better?

They are better with him there. Most players cant literally make a guy jump higher, run faster, shoot better, be smarter, etc when they are not around.

He takes his team to finals every damn year. And his teams are generally full of garbage (other than d-wade and kyrie).

Its just stupid to criticize lebron. He is easily the 2nd best player of all time. A big part of the reason for that is because of how good he is at sharing the ball and how he makes scrubs look pretty good despit being scrubs.


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[LoPo]

Idiot.

Wow dude really?

Do you know the history of Len Bias? Do you know he was a 1st rounder with LeBron like buzz when he came out?

Do you also realize that Nike got sued by the Beatles label because they released a shoe called Revolution, made thousands of them and had to rebrand them which created the opening for MJ? It is very, very possible that Len Bias playing for one of the two biggest franshises in the NBA would have been the poster boy.

But he died and the rest is history...



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[framer]

A MAX salary spot is a resource but they were looking at Hayward as the asset, which they were getting for free.

Could of Flip him for expirings and picks, opening up the MAX spot again while adding multiple 1sts...

Who is giving up picks for 32 Million per for the next 2 and a half years of Gordon Hayward? List any two moron teams. . .

 

[Crawlnstall]

Who is giving up picks for 32 Million per for the next 2 and a half years of Gordon Hayward? List any two moron teams. . .

I can think of a few teams that would make a deal like this...
Knicks
Hornets
Pelicans
Magic
Pistons

 

[LoPo]

I can think of a few teams that would make a deal like this...
Knicks
Hornets
Pelicans
Magic
Pistons

Hornets and Pistons would be willing. They seem desperate enough.

Magic, maybe but remember they are already paying wings Gordon, Fournier and Isaac. They mainly want a PG.

Knicks heck no. Pelicans not with AD leaving.

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