Hayward's Woes

[Stars Fan]

We don't know what kind of career Bias would have had. The league has seen plenty of can't miss college talent that did not excel at the next level. However, he had the tools to be great. It is really sad that he passed so young.

I was not comparing him to Gordon on a talent basis, but rather on the negative impact his injury and uncertain recovery will likely have on the team. His max contract keeps them scrambling rather than steam rolling the East.

Len Bias was a much bigger talent than Hayward. He was drawing comparisons to Jordan, and rightfully so.

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[Stars Fan]

Hayward dies of a coke overdose after Robyn leaves him for Isiah Thomas?

You sir, are one cold hearted man.

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[JAZZGASM]

I don't disagree with your sentiment but to be clear, with Boozer it was all about the $$$$$$

He came to Utah because they had the cap space and were able to offer more than The Cavs.

With Hayward it was the opposite.

The Boozer thing was shady. He would have made like $700k if the team had exercised their option. Pelinka asked them to not exercise the option and in return Boozer would sign the mid-level exception (like $40M over 6 IIRC). Cavs couldn't really admit to that as it could result in tampering. So yeah, Booze was about the $$$, but that was a shady deal. I remember joking to a buddy that the Jazz should sign Boozer to a big contract after the team picked up the offer. Surprised when it actually happened.

Hayward was a free agent and made a decision. He went about it really poorly, and ultimately made a bad choice, but IMO, the Boozer thing was much dirtier.

 

[LoPo]

MJ would not be the false idol MJ he is today if Len Bias had played in the NBA. Very good chance that the discontinued Nike Revolution would have fallen into Len's lap instead of MJ's.

 

[candrew]

The Boozer thing was shady. He would have made like $700k if the team had exercised their option. Pelinka asked them to not exercise the option and in return Boozer would sign the mid-level exception (like $40M over 6 IIRC). Cavs couldn't really admit to that as it could result in tampering. So yeah, Booze was about the $$$, but that was a shady deal. I remember joking to a buddy that the Jazz should sign Boozer to a big contract after the team picked up the offer. Surprised when it actually happened.

Hayward was a free agent and made a decision. He went about it really poorly, and ultimately made a bad choice, but IMO, the Boozer thing was much dirtier.

Thanks, I remember the controversy I just didn't remember the exact details and wasn't that inclined to look it up.

 

[JAZZGASM]

Thanks, I remember the controversy I just didn't remember the exact details and wasn't that inclined to look it up.

I didn't look it up, so I could be wrong on some of the details, but that is what I remember. At the same time, from a different viewpoint, Boozer would have been eligible for even more if he played his final year. So in some ways, the Cavs were trying to take $ out of his pocket too. But I have to think that they would have picked up his cheap option unless his agent or Boozer went to the Cavs with the idea. It was bad all around.

 

[framer]

I didn't look it up, so I could be wrong on some of the details, but that is what I remember. At the same time, from a different viewpoint, Boozer would have been eligible for even more if he played his final year. So in some ways, the Cavs were trying to take $ out of his pocket too. But I have to think that they would have picked up his cheap option unless his agent or Boozer went to the Cavs with the idea. It was bad all around.

The Cavs we're shady as well. They wanted Booz on a long term team friendly contract rather than one more year for peanuts. They took the chance that by releasing him, they could get that long term deal done.

Their real problem is that they had Boozer slotted as a roleplayer, and they were stupidly pointed about that in their negotiations. Their never dreamed that anyone would consider Boozer a featured player. The money AND the chance to slide into the Malone role in the Jazz offense was more than Cleveland could compete with. Had Cleveland, during that period, sold him on being a cornerstone of the franchise, things definitely could have been different.

Jazz made the same mistake with Wesley Matthews.

 

[JimLes]

I have come to firmly believe that Boozer fiasco changed the course of the NBA as we know it. For all his issues, Boozer was a legit stud, a 20-10 player in his prime and an All-NBA 3rd team player. His advanced numbers around the time he was an All-Star easily confirm he was a top 15 player in the league. His last season in Cleveland was also LeBron's first. Had he stayed with Cleveland, LeBron might have never left. I think 2009 season was particularly important here. LeBron dragged a team of scrubs to 66(sixty-six!) wins only to lose to Dwight and the Magic in the Eastern finals. I am now sure that's when LeBron decided to bolt and go to Miami with his buddies. We all remember how he wouldn't shake Dwight's hand and how pissed he seemed in the aftermath.

You have to remember they were starting Anderson Varejao at this point. A then-Carlos Boozer would've been a huge upgrade on Varejao. Hell, as crazy as it sounds, they probably win 70+ games with him. They would've knocked out Magic, and they would've had home court against Kobe and the Lakers. It's not a given, but I think with Boozer they have a decent chance of winning. And if they do win 70+ in the regular season and then the championship, I think LeBron never leaves Cleveland. The last 10 years of NBA look completely different.

So while you don't feel bad for either the Jazz or Boozer or Cleveland in this situation because everyone was kind of being shady, you have to think the person who got ****ed over the most here was actually LeBron. His legacy would've been even greater now had he won in 2009 and stayed in Cleveland.

 

[framer]

I have come to firmly believe that Boozer fiasco changed the course of the NBA as we know it. For all his issues, Boozer was a legit stud, a 20-10 player in his prime and an All-NBA 3rd team player. His advanced numbers around the time he was an All-Star easily confirm he was a top 15 player in the league. His last season in Cleveland was also LeBron's first. Had he stayed with Cleveland, LeBron might have never left. I think 2009 season was particularly important here. LeBron dragged a team of scrubs to 66(sixty-six!) wins only to lose to Dwight and the Magic in the Eastern finals. I am now sure that's when LeBron decided to bolt and go to Miami with his buddies. We all remember how he wouldn't shake Dwight's hand and how pissed he seemed in the aftermath.

You have to remember they were starting Anderson Varejao at this point. A then-Carlos Boozer would've been a huge upgrade on Varejao. Hell, as crazy as it sounds, they probably win 70+ games with him. They would've knocked out Magic, and they would've had home court against Kobe and the Lakers. It's not a given, but I think with Boozer they have a decent chance of winning. And if they do win 70+ in the regular season and then the championship, I think LeBron never leaves Cleveland. The last 10 years of NBA look completely different.

So while you don't feel bad for either the Jazz or Boozer or Cleveland in this situation because everyone was kind of being shady, you have to think the person who got ****ed over the most here was actually LeBron. His legacy would've been even greater now had he won in 2009 and stayed in Cleveland.

Lebron can get bent.

 

[framer]

I have come to firmly believe that Boozer fiasco changed the course of the NBA as we know it. For all his issues, Boozer was a legit stud, a 20-10 player in his prime and an All-NBA 3rd team player. His advanced numbers around the time he was an All-Star easily confirm he was a top 15 player in the league. His last season in Cleveland was also LeBron's first. Had he stayed with Cleveland, LeBron might have never left. I think 2009 season was particularly important here. LeBron dragged a team of scrubs to 66(sixty-six!) wins only to lose to Dwight and the Magic in the Eastern finals. I am now sure that's when LeBron decided to bolt and go to Miami with his buddies. We all remember how he wouldn't shake Dwight's hand and how pissed he seemed in the aftermath.

You have to remember they were starting Anderson Varejao at this point. A then-Carlos Boozer would've been a huge upgrade on Varejao. Hell, as crazy as it sounds, they probably win 70+ games with him. They would've knocked out Magic, and they would've had home court against Kobe and the Lakers. It's not a given, but I think with Boozer they have a decent chance of winning. And if they do win 70+ in the regular season and then the championship, I think LeBron never leaves Cleveland. The last 10 years of NBA look completely different.

So while you don't feel bad for either the Jazz or Boozer or Cleveland in this situation because everyone was kind of being shady, you have to think the person who got ****ed over the most here was actually LeBron. His legacy would've been even greater now had he won in 2009 and stayed in Cleveland.

The problem that you have is that Boozer doesn't become that all star if he stays in Cleveland. They used him, and continued to want to use him as a role player. With Lebron he was never going to be featured. You can't just add his Utah stats to the Cavs. Boozer needed a lot of touches and endless pick and roll opportunities to get to 20 and 10. He was never getting that opportunity in Cleveland. He would have been used exactly as they used Drew Gooden (who wasn't a slouch.)

 

[JimLes]

The problem that you have is that Boozer doesn't become that all star if he stays in Cleveland. They used him, and continued to want to use him as a role player. With Lebron he was never going to be featured. You can't just add his Utah stats to the Cavs. Boozer needed a lot of touches and endless pick and roll opportunities to get to 20 and 10. He was never getting that opportunity in Cleveland. He would have been used exactly as they used Drew Gooden (who wasn't a slouch.)

But Boozer had put up 15-11 before he signed with the Jazz. That's a bit better than Gooden ever did. His usage that season was 20%. He'd get up to about 25% with the Jazz, but Gooden was around 11-12% while with the Cavs. You're really selling Boozer short if you think he'd be a Drew Gooden. The Cavs' front office was stupid, but they weren't that stupid. Boozer was a damn good player, and exactly the kind of player they needed next to LeBron, a homegrown borderline-star. Worst case scenario, a 27-year old Boozer would've been a much better trade asset than what they were able to scrounge up every summer when they tried to pull a blockbuster to get James some help.

 

[framer]

But Boozer had put up 15-11 before he signed with the Jazz. That's a bit better than Gooden ever did. His usage that season was 20%. He'd get up to about 25% with the Jazz, but Gooden was around 11-12% while with the Cavs. You're really selling Boozer short if you think he'd be a Drew Gooden. The Cavs' front office was stupid, but they weren't that stupid. Boozer was a damn good player, and exactly the kind of player they needed next to LeBron, a homegrown borderline-star. Worst case scenario, a 27-year old Boozer would've been a much better trade asset than what they were able to scrounge up every summer when they tried to pull a blockbuster to get James some help.

See that is a solid point, all of this is probably meaningless because the Cavs would have auctioned off Boozer for the latest flavor of the month to put next to LeGM.

Boozer was better than Gooden, no doubt, but I also think Gooden was better than the role he was thrust into in Cleveland. LeBron does crazy things to team dynamics, and this became more pronounced as LeBron got older. I think LeBron coexisted with Wade because that was Wade's team and city, he had no choice. Bosh was kind of wasted (although he was a good luxury.) LeBron is bad at sharing.

Also, Boozer was not a "borderline star." Before his injuries has was a star and actually deserved more accolades that what he received.