Hillary Clinton says Tulsi Gabbard is a 'Russian asset' groomed to ensure Trump reelection

[Al-O-Meter]

Saying "give Putin what he wants" is supporting him invading Ukraine, whichever way you'd like to spin it.

That's a nice straw man you built there but advocating for a course of deescalation even if it is naive is not the same thing as defending an invasion. Being Neville Chamberlain is not the same as being Philippe Pétain.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Which… ironically, might’ve served as a deterrent to putin.

Ironically, I hope more nations apply for NATO membership and sanctions obliterate Russia’s oligarchs.

So you are rejecting the approach of the Biden and Obama administrations to advocate for George W. Bush's stance.

NATO Allies Oppose Bush on Georgia and Ukraine (Published 2008)

President Bush’s position on NATO’s ties with Georgia and Ukraine contradicts German and French views.

www.nytimes.com

This invasion could really blow up in Putin’s face. Well deserved too.

It is not sounding like Tulsi is the one here wanting to see this invasion go forward.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Putin is invading Ukraine because he doesn’t believe it should be an independent country:

Back in June, during a nationally televised call-in show, Putin pronounced that Ukrainians and Russians were a "single people." He then elaborated on the subject in a 5,000-word article that lamented the "artificial division of Russians and Ukrainians."

Stripped to its essence, Putin's argument was that Ukraine and Ukrainians are part of a larger "historical Russia" -- and that modern-day Ukraine, which gained independence in 1991, was merely the by-product of administrative and territorial boundaries cooked up by the Soviet leadership.
The Russian president made no mention, of course, of the millions of Ukrainians who voted overwhelmingly in support of independence.
No, in Putin's view, post-Soviet Ukraine became a tool of the West for weakening Russia.
"Ukraine was dragged into a dangerous geopolitical game aimed at turning Ukraine into a barrier between Europe and Russia, a springboard against Russia," he wrote. "Inevitably, there came a time when the concept of 'Ukraine is not Russia' was no longer an option. There was a need for the 'anti-Russia' concept which we will never accept."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/24/europe/vladimir-putin-history-wars-russia-ukraine-cmd-intl/index.html
Maybe it’s time we finally place blame where it truly lies, Putin?

 

[Deleted member 365]

So you are rejecting the approach of the Biden and Obama administrations to advocate for George W. Bush's stance.

NATO Allies Oppose Bush on Georgia and Ukraine (Published 2008)

President Bush’s position on NATO’s ties with Georgia and Ukraine contradicts German and French views.

www.nytimes.com

It is not sounding like Tulsi is the one here wanting to see this invasion go forward.

You’re being dishonest, again. Why do you always turn these arguments into spin, straw man, and ultimately just dishonesty? Like seriously, is your life so devoid of value or interest that you have to lie and try and incite argument on a damn sports message board? I’m tolerant of different views and encourage debate. But it needs to be (1) honest and (2) supported by evidence. You rarely do this. It’s quite annoying and I’m rethinking my decision to unignore you tbh

I don’t want Putin to invade Ukraine (again). But if he does, I hope it blows up completely in his face (unlike the last time he illegally invaded them).

 

[Deleted member 365]

These are fantastic reads for those interested in why Putin is behaving the way he is and what the west can do if/when Putin invades Ukraine.

Putin, like every autocrat, knows that democracy anywhere is a threat to his own regime, because people making their own decisions and running their own lives gives his own citizens some unhealthy ideas. And when it’s being practiced by former Soviet subjects—and especially by other Slavs—right on his doorstep, he gets especially itchy. As McFaul put it smartly and succinctly, Putin is not threatened by NATO expansion into Ukraine but by the existence of democracy in Ukraine.

World War III?

Not likely. But Putin is warming up the dice.

newsletters.theatlantic.com

What can be done:

Only Putin Knows What Happens Next

He alone can make the choice to bring Europe back from the brink of a major war.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Deleted member 365]

I also think it’s important to recognize why so much of the American right loves Putin. They see a blueprint for themselves in Putin. A way to hold power against the majority. A country of white Christianity to emulate. It’s also why Tucker is so gaga over Orban and Hungary. They see these illiberal democracies as blueprints:

in the 21st century, we must also contend with a new phenomenon: right-wing intellectuals, now deeply critical of their own societies, who have begun paying court to right-wing dictators who dislike America. And their motives are curiously familiar. All around them, they see degeneracy, racial mixing, demographic change, “political correctness,” same-sex marriage, religious decline. The America that they actually inhabit no longer matches the white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant America that they remember, or think they remember. And so they have begun to look abroad, seeking to find the spiritually unified, ethnically pure nations that, they imagine, are morally stronger than their own. Nations, for example, such as Russia… The pioneer of this search was Patrick Buchanan, the godfather of the modern so-called alt-right, whose feelings about foreign authoritarians shifted right about the time he started writing books with titles such as The Death of the West and Suicide of a Superpower. His columns pour scorn on modern America, a place he once described, with disgust, as a “multicultural, multiethnic, multiracial, multilingual ‘universal nation’ whose avatar is Barack Obama.” Buchanan’s America is in demographic decline, has been swamped by beige and brown people, and has lost its virtue. The West, he has written, has succumbed to “a sexual revolution of easy divorce, rampant promiscuity, pornography, homosexuality, feminism, abortion, same-sex marriage, euthanasia, assisted suicide—the displacement of Christian values by Hollywood values.”

The False Romance of Russia

American conservatives who find themselves identifying with Putin’s regime refuse to see the country for what it actually is.

www.theatlantic.com

Hungary to host global right-wing populists in support of PM Orban

Hungary will in March host right-wing participants from the United States and Europe including the leader of Spain's Vox party at a conference linked to U.S. conservatives, a leading pro-government think-tank said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[JimLes]

That's a nice straw man you built there but advocating for a course of deescalation even if it is naive is not the same thing as defending an invasion. Being Neville Chamberlain is not the same as being Philippe Pétain.

Tulsi Gabbard is not so stupid(or naive as you say) as to not realize what Putin actually wants. No one is that stupid, even on this board.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Tulsi Gabbard is not so stupid(or naive as you say) as to not realize what Putin actually wants. No one is that stupid, even on this board.

The understanding of where this is going or what is motivating it is not agreed upon by everyone as your echo chamber says. I don’t necessarily agree with them as I’ve stated that Russia could indeed move into the Donbas where there are a lot of ethnic Russians, but those who think this is all posturing do point to some interesting evidence to support their case.

Here are five reasons an invastion isn’t likely:
1.) Risk aversion. (Even The Thriller thinks this will blow up in Putin’s face)
2.) You break it, you own it.
3.) Galvanizing NATO.
4.) Inevitable sanctions.
5.) Domestic opposition.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorent...hy-putin-wont-invade-ukraine/?sh=154115372927

is Russia actually about to attack Ukraine? The answer, based on the empirical evidence, seems to be a resounding no. … First of all, Russia has made no effort to conceal the movement of these forces … The Ukrainian army, at this point, is experienced, modernized, and highly motivated. It would not be a pushover … Russia’s current occupations of South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Crimea are expensive, but they are viable because there is an element of the local population there that welcomes Russia. … Such a dynamic does not exist in western Ukraine
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/17/russia-isnt-about-to-attack-ukraine/

If Vladimir Putin does decide on war in Ukraine, few Russians will be expecting it. The propaganda machine has not yet been switched on
https://www.economist.com/europe/20...-in-ukraine-few-russians-will-be-expecting-it

 

[babe]

The understanding of where this is going or what is motivating it is not agreed upon by everyone as your echo chamber says. I don’t necessarily agree with them as I’ve stated that Russia could indeed move into the Donbas where there are a lot of ethnic Russians, but those who think this is all posturing do point to some interesting evidence to support their case.

back to topic.

Hillary Clinton is a globalist who'd laugh and enjoy a tumble in the straw with Putin or any other world leader. She doesn't believe in borders or nation states, just money. It's all good as long as she gets her jollies and her money.

As weak minded as any know-nothing ignoramuses in the trailer park might be, there is no one there stupid enough not to see that fact about HC. Yet we have a completely indentured media service and flocks of professors all over the country whose job it is to create a more complicated mythology to bedazzle the populace. The reason this is needed is to legitimize corrupt governance and get kids to go shoot people in foreign lands, or where ever, in the service of the game.

I don't know Putin. I read a little Russian, I can go see what he is saying in the Russian press.. Go figure. Perhaps the Russian people are mushroomed the same way we are. What should you believe.

I'd expect Putin to be corrupt just like Hillary or Biden, the same way Marxist strategists employ "the Politics of Personal Destruction" against people like Trump using merely false assertions without evidence.

But the undeniable fact is that during Gorbachev days, negotiating stuff like independent states for Eastern European countries like Ukraine and nuclear arms reductions like the START treaty, we made a deal with Russia that we wouldn not move NATO into that space, not even one inch. Putin is calling us out on that broken promise, and our leaders and our Press are all lying to us about what what is going on.

Our leaders and our Press have been goading the American public for war for a damn long time already. I could lay out the game leading up to our own Civil War and even the Indian wars and removals like the Trail of Tears. There's always the money, and always the corrupt politicians and their backers/cronies who make fortunes off of war, poverty, death and destruction of ordinary people.

It was "Remember the Maine" that got us to go take Cuba and the Philippines. It was "Over There" that got us to send millions of duped Americans to go fight to save the Crown in WWI, and our own stupid elites who built up Hitler until he went Amok and attacked the West.

And it's been the big Cold War lie after we gave Russia the nuke technology, even while our super elite played Russia and China like the little puppets they are.

Reading Putin as I do, the fact is that whatever his political ideology or background, he is a Russian nationalist more than a globalist. He may be on the short list for regime change in the eyes of Western managers. He favors home-grown financial interests' "oligarchs" over American oligarchs. Whoop de doo. What a crime against humanity.

I believe Putin will develop good relations with elected Ukrainian leadership, but he will also take out Western fascist agitators/fascists if they do a provocation. Imagine that. A tactical strike against a small band of terrorists funded by Soros and perhaps other Western Oligarchs. Pretty much the same thing as us taking out an Iranian agitator in Iraq. He will do what has to be done, then he will leave. He can count on two things. Ukrainians, whether ethnic Russian or not, do not want him to come in to stay. Whatever he does will be communicated to those people as a benevolent Russia helping Ukrainian democracy. There will be a treaty with Ukraine about a security zone around Russia's Black Sea bases. Maybe even a few long-term leases for further military bases.

Tulsi Gabbard is a good American who doesn't believe we should be using our military to fight for our industrialists' interests. More of a conventional democrat than Hillary.

 

[Scat]

 

[JimLes]

The understanding of where this is going or what is motivating it is not agreed upon by everyone as your echo chamber says.

Of course not. Russian apologists very much disagree.

This isn't about whether some Russian attack is shortly imminent. This is about the question of why Putin wants guarantees that Ukraine will join Nato.

And if you (and Tulsi) think there is more than one possible answer, then you're either being facetious or naive. Take your pick.

 

[Deleted member 365]

This actually supports my case that Gabbard is a tool of the Kremlin. She’s reading their talking pts line by line.

1. The TV stations shut down were propaganda outlets for Russia. One of the outlets is owned by a man whose daughter was baptized by putin. While not ideal, it’s pretty obvious why they’d shut these down. I mean, after all, why was Donald asking their president to dig up dirt on Hunter Biden? It was because he knew that Ukraine is desperate. They’re at war with Russia. When you’re at war, like they have been since 2014, you can’t permit Russian propaganda to shred your society.
2. The former president is currently under investigation for corruption surrounding the purchasing of coal from separatist controlled areas. But he hasn’t been imprisoned.

Court in Ukraine Declines Request to Arrest Former President (Published 2022)

A feud between President Volodymyr Zelensky and his predecessor, Petro O. Poroshenko, has carried on despite the risk the country is facing from Russia.

www.nytimes.com

Ask yourself, “What would Putin want?”

1. Ukraine to have the support of the west?
2. The west to abandon Ukraine over the guise that it’s “not really a democracy anyway” so it’s all good if Russia invades?

Cmon guys, let’s get better at this game. ****. Russia assassinates critics, imprisons dissidents, has no free press, invades other countries, hacks the servers of our political parties, and manipulates how we vote and think through social media and tools like Tulsi.

We need to get better at this fight.