SoberasHotRod
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Imagine you are Quin Snyder. The front office has given you our current team. We match up with the Clippers again and they put Marcus Morris at the 5. What would your counter move be?
How would you counter small ball?
- Thread starter SoberasHotRod
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If I am Quin Snyder I make zero adjustments.
If I were many other coaches I'd at least try a few different options. Try guarding the mid-range (where they destroyed us) and perhaps change the offense to exploit the small ball. Have some old school back cuts and screens and pound the rim (and maybe take some mid-range shots so they can stop packing the paint and overguarding the 3. The Clips are soft, make them work harder and they'd stumble. That is what I loved about Sloan's sets, make the defender work every second of the play. Miss a step and it would be an easy basket. I'm all for playing odds, but you have to take into account the wear on your opponent over a series. The Jazz offense let's defenders largely stay in an area and not work too hard.
This years squad is a whole new look so there are a lot of new variables one could try.
SoberasHotRod
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This didn't turn out too well for Jhonny. Whoops, sorry for the spoiler.
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SoberasHotRod
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I think we figured out how to attack small ball/switching defense decently well last year. So I'm not as concerned about offense in those situations. What should we do defensively when they can pull Rudy away from the paint with all above average 3pt shooters? How do we cover for our lack of guys who can defend on the perimeter?
I'd do a couple things, but first the principle I'd go by is by forcing people to play the way we want, and not trying to accommodate how they're playing.
1. I'd be aware of the lob. This doesn't mean throwing a lob every time down the floor. But we miss it a lot and I would be consciously aware of it every time down the floor. Then I'd attack the rim as much as possible. If they're packing the paint because of Rudy, then throw lobs up high.
2. I'd change the way we played defense and let Rudy guard the perimeter and not be solely responsible for the paint. This requires a complete adjustment and I'm not convinced that our perimeter defenders are that bad on their own merits. Don't get me wrong, they're bad, it's just that the way we play exacerbates it.
#2 negates a lot of Rudy's impact defensively, which to a degree would be what the other team is looking for, but with a small increase in #1 we could hopefully off-set it so teams going small is only a minor advantage for them, rather than a potentially game-changing one.
Then I guess you could run some different offensive looks if you're doing Gay as a 5, but the whole defensive idea (especially if all the other players are playing defense as if Gay is Gobert) would get drastically worse.
1. I'd be aware of the lob. This doesn't mean throwing a lob every time down the floor. But we miss it a lot and I would be consciously aware of it every time down the floor. Then I'd attack the rim as much as possible. If they're packing the paint because of Rudy, then throw lobs up high.
2. I'd change the way we played defense and let Rudy guard the perimeter and not be solely responsible for the paint. This requires a complete adjustment and I'm not convinced that our perimeter defenders are that bad on their own merits. Don't get me wrong, they're bad, it's just that the way we play exacerbates it.
#2 negates a lot of Rudy's impact defensively, which to a degree would be what the other team is looking for, but with a small increase in #1 we could hopefully off-set it so teams going small is only a minor advantage for them, rather than a potentially game-changing one.
Then I guess you could run some different offensive looks if you're doing Gay as a 5, but the whole defensive idea (especially if all the other players are playing defense as if Gay is Gobert) would get drastically worse.
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SoberasHotRod
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I'm in the camp of keeping Rudy on the floor. He's one of the best isolation defenders in the game, however, the Clippers did have some success against him in the playoffs. They did a good job of getting in to his body instead of trying to outspeed him (where so many have gloriously failed). I think Rudy will adjust to the way the Clippers were attacking him though.
I'm not convinced our guys are capable of staying in front of their guys 1:1, which is sad. Obviously injuries impacted the complete failure of game 6, but Ingles and Clarkson didn't have that excuse.
I think your point #1 is pretty critical. Rudy showed in the Olympics that if you keep with him he can score against smaller players. I honestly think it's a Donovan issue though, who gets frustrated when Rudy mishandles passes.
SoUjazzfan
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I'd hope to have a healthy Mitchell and Conley for the playoffs. This would change everything, but I'm not sure how to accomplish it. If history has taught us anything, it's that Mike will be banged up come playoff time.
SoberasHotRod
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Mike was healthy in the bubble playoffs, but missed time because of his kid being born. Did he have a history of being injured in the playoffs during his Memphis years (honest question, I don't know)?
Plus, Mike is doing Yoga now like Joe Johnson, so he should be good to go.
It may be a Donovan issue on the surface, but it’s Quin I would hold accountable for that.
LogGrad98
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I was going to say, sweep the leg.
LogGrad98
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Yeah either way it was a REALLY bad look with Gobert with an obvious mismatch standing under the basket and Mitchell just ignored him and took some fade-away 3 with a hand in his face. Happened more than once, then they took Gobert out because he wasn't being effective. Can't be effective if he doesn't get the ball in a position to score. That's the playmakers/coaches issue, not Rudy's, imo.
LogGrad98
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You know a lot of this changes if we have a solid perimeter defender to support Rudy. Get one guy who can stay in front of his man and this dynamic is instantly better. Too bad the front office was never told this was a need.
But for what we do have, this is about as good as it gets.
For starters, they need Rudy to commit, and have other players ready to step up. Our biggest flaw isn't Rudy, it's the inability to adapt from the funnel to Rudy defense the Clips exploited. The idea that you can let your defender penetrate to Rudy and still expect him to recover cost us the series. Stop the penetration, even if that means giving less contested shots, better than wide open 3s where your big can't recover from protecting the drive. Also, why not try a 1-3-1 or 3-2?
Keep in mind, the Clips shot a much higher percentage from 2 than Utah did (50 vs 45) , and a higher percentage but much closer from 3 (43%vs 45%). While the Jazz offense was ok, the lack of shots in mid-range made the Jazz much easier to guard and predictable. The Clips were exploiting us all over the court. There was one game where the Jazz took close to zero shots from mid-range the entire game. If the Clips did that to us, we would have defended them well. The Jazz system to stop 3s and layups is great in a vacuum, but when a team shoots a super high percentage from mid-range due to being wide open, you have a problem.
The other problem is Quin has to figure out how to get Rudy more involved in the offense. You could see the frustration on Rudy's face getting 6 shots a game. His attention on offense leads to his commitment on defense.
Agreed, but the philosophy that they can guard tight on the perimeter and expect Rudy to save them won't work with 5 shooters on the floor. Even committing to not allow the drive (at the expense of semi open 3s) would have been better.
That could be Dunn (still could be if we wanted to use the TPE… Memphis has too many guys and they could drop $5M easy). But too many guys out there “OMG teh offense and teh shooting!!1 noooos!”
1. Be more willing to switch with Gobert on the court, especially if the other team doesnt have some elite off the dribble small guard
2. Find a way to give Gobert deep post touches
3. Make dudes like Mitchell play actual perimeter defense
2. Find a way to give Gobert deep post touches
3. Make dudes like Mitchell play actual perimeter defense
Honest question for smarter basketball minds: When a team goes small on us, can we play Gobert and Whitesides together?
When a team goes small on us, I’ve always been EXTREMELY frustrated that the Jazz can never seem to make them pay by staying big and punishing our opponents down low until they’re forced to abandon their small ball line up. IMO, we’re unable to do this because of Rudy’s limited offensive abilities and at this point, Rudy is who Rudy is and that’s not going to change. While Whitesides has his limitations, I think he’s got enough low post moves that we might finally be able to make teams suffer for going small.
If we can’t play them alongside each other, I think it’s worth sitting Rudy down and rolling with Whitesides to see if he can have a positive effect on a team going small.
If staying big isn’t a viable option, I think Snyder has to come to terms with sitting Rudy when teams go small, especially in the playoffs and even more so if we end up facing the Clippers again. I’m sure it’s hard to come to terms with sitting your 3x DPOY, but in all honesty if Quin did that in the last game vs the Clips, we don’t blow a 25 point 2nd half lead and live to fight another game.
Rudy is a competitor and I’m sure that it would be a move that’s hard for him to deal with initially but the guy wants to win more than anything and the fact of the matter is that most teams aren’t as equipped as the Clippers are to make the Jazz pay for not adjusting to their small line-up, so it’s not like Rudy would have to sit out longer stretches series after series.
The only thing we do know for sure at this point: Quin’s philosophy does not work vs teams like the Clippers. He needs to be willing to adjust his philosophy accordingly or he’s probably looking for a new job after our next playoff disappointment.
When a team goes small on us, I’ve always been EXTREMELY frustrated that the Jazz can never seem to make them pay by staying big and punishing our opponents down low until they’re forced to abandon their small ball line up. IMO, we’re unable to do this because of Rudy’s limited offensive abilities and at this point, Rudy is who Rudy is and that’s not going to change. While Whitesides has his limitations, I think he’s got enough low post moves that we might finally be able to make teams suffer for going small.
If we can’t play them alongside each other, I think it’s worth sitting Rudy down and rolling with Whitesides to see if he can have a positive effect on a team going small.
If staying big isn’t a viable option, I think Snyder has to come to terms with sitting Rudy when teams go small, especially in the playoffs and even more so if we end up facing the Clippers again. I’m sure it’s hard to come to terms with sitting your 3x DPOY, but in all honesty if Quin did that in the last game vs the Clips, we don’t blow a 25 point 2nd half lead and live to fight another game.
Rudy is a competitor and I’m sure that it would be a move that’s hard for him to deal with initially but the guy wants to win more than anything and the fact of the matter is that most teams aren’t as equipped as the Clippers are to make the Jazz pay for not adjusting to their small line-up, so it’s not like Rudy would have to sit out longer stretches series after series.
The only thing we do know for sure at this point: Quin’s philosophy does not work vs teams like the Clippers. He needs to be willing to adjust his philosophy accordingly or he’s probably looking for a new job after our next playoff disappointment.
NAOS
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Plenty of things to say about this OP, but the bottom-line is Quin Synder. He needs to spend time installing different defensive schemas during the regular season. Doing so may cost the team a few games (and it may not). The problem isn’t Rudy; the problem is our schema, and the fact that we really only have one of them (with a couple wrinkles).
SoberasHotRod
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We ran some zone last year, but it was one of the worst looking zones I've ever seen. I'm not sure if it is coaching or players, but our rotations are so slow/not in sync.
I remember during the first half of game 6 we were doing a pretty good job of rotating out to the guy Rudy was leaving to protect the paint. Then in the second half the rotations stopped.