I can’t afford this Trump economy

[PJF]

View: https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/1933174639531901157?t=37zVscwbWzeIOHCqeHVsxQ&s=19

 

[Mongoose]

View: https://x.com/GuntherEagleman/status/1932961292458807547

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Interesting to see one of the resident Trump apologists all but coming right out, and identifying liberals and Democrats as “the enemy within”. I wonder how many problems will even be addressed on a level playing field, level in the sense that we’re all American citizens, we accept each other as fellow citizens, regardless of which side of any political, social, cultural divisiveness? For some strange reason, Trump apologists seem to think the only acceptable outcome is the defeat of America’s public enemy #1: Democrats, and better yet, let them fade away forever, no longer acceptable as “patriots” and “correct-thinking” Americans. Crush them, let it be a single party America! I do wonder at what point these apologists would be willing to holdback in their identification of Democrats and liberals as our nation’s greatest enemy: will they stop short of “re-education camps” like the Chinese have for the Uyghurs? I think we can bet our last buck there are American Trump supporters who would give a thumbs up for death camps. Oh, that won’t happen, I know that, but you can bet some Trump supporters would not stop short of even a “final solution”. Not here, but throughout this country such Americans exist.

Years ago, in response to a request by Joe Bagadonuts, I started a thread looking at psychological differences, even brain structural differences, between liberals and conservatives. I’ve known all along that some of our differences, problably most easily perceived in our culture wars, are due to differences that may have its roots in fundamental differences in how liberals and conservatives see the world at large. Truisms, like liberals are more comfortable with change, conservatives are more attune to threats. Fundamental differences in how one perceives and reacts to the greater world at large. And this must be fundamental in some respect, be endemic within our respective natures(allowances for nature vs. nurture debate), in some sense: we see this right/left split throughout the world, and clearly, we are living at a time where Right leaning mindsets are in the ascendant, and winning elections everywhere.

As far as eggs, bird flu. Bird flu. Better hope it doesn’t mutate in a way that leads to human to human transmission.

Hi Red,
I dropped by Jazzfanz today for the first time in years because I found myself wondering if all of the crazy political happenings and debate had changed anyones mind about anything. I had no intention of logging on, and definitely didn't anticipate replying to anything, but then I came across this post from you that mentions me. After reading the next few pages of this conversation I decided to come back to your post and reply.

First of all, I want to say that I hope all is well with you. You always struck me as a good guy. I remember when you first showed up on the site because you were a fan of some guy that the Jazz had acquired who I believe went to college in your hometown (or something like that). It's amazing that you stuck around here so much longer than that player (and so much longer than me). BTW, my life has changed dramatically since the days that I used to hang around here. These days I'm far too busy counting my blessings to spend much time on social media.

Second, I don't buy your claim that there are actual differences between liberal and conservative brains. As evidence I would point to people who were formerly categorized on one side of the aisle, and who are now firmly on the other side of the aisle? Did the composition of their brain change, or did they acquire more information or have some dramatic life experience that changed their mind. I think the latter in nearly every circumstance. I believe that the mistake we are all making is to think that any of us have anything approaching a complete grasp of the facts. This world is way too complex and it is moving far too quickly for any of us to ever have a strong grasp of what's is going on. I've found that the more certain someone is about something, the less that they probably know about it. Just as an example, the scientists who I admire most don't ever speak in absolutes, because they have learned from experience that everything we think that we know is just one experiment away from being proven incorrect. (Note: Anthony Fauci is a purported scientist who appears to understand next to nothing about the scientific method.)

And third (most relevant to the reason that I visited JazzFanz today in the first place), it is fascinating to me to discover that, at least on this site, all of the discussion and convincing that has gone on over all of these years has mostly had the result of solidifying the position of the poster who was trying to do the convincing. There are several names here that I do not know, and I can't be certain whether those are new participants or old participants with different names. Among the ones that I do know, they are all still advancing the same sorts of arguments that they were eight years ago, when I was active on this site. That is amazing! I'm guessing it has something to do with the anonymous nature of this forum. It sort of gives people a free pass to ignore facts that don't go their way, and then just plow forward with the exact same sort of future predictions as if they learned nothing from comparing their predictions to the actual outcomes as the future transformed itself into the past. Of course, I have only looked at the first few pages of this one thread, so maybe I'm off on my assessment.

One final thought: I'm not sure why I'm including this but I feel compelled to (and as I think about it, this dovetails into my earlier contention that liberal and conservative brains are not structurally different). A few winters ago I was backcountry skiing (one of my favorite pastimes). On a long hike up the hill I got into a fascinating political discussion with another skier. He seemed well informed. As we reached the summit he said, "I think you'd probably be interested in a book two of my brothers wrote. It's called The Myth of Left and Right. They just published it last week." I was stunned by the comment, because how could he hold a nugget like that until the very end of our conversation. After all, what were the chances that such a book had been published by his brothers only moments before I met and got into this discussion with him? I bought the book later that day. It was only in hardback, extremely expensive (so much so that I almost decided not to pull the trigger), and (I can now say) worth every penny that I spent on it and more. It lays out what I found to be an incredibly compelling case that left and right really are a myth. It shows what these positions really are, why this is a big problem, and it suggests what can be done about it. I would highly recommend the book to anyone who is truly interested in advancing political discussion. It's now available through Kindle at a much less expensive price. Those who are only interested in trying to shove their opinions down their enemies throats (yeah, I'm looking at you, Thriller), are going to hate it, so I would not recommend it to a guy like him. But many of the rest of you could probably get a lot out of it.
Cheers,
Joe Bagadonuts

 

[LogGrad98]

Hi Red,
I dropped by Jazzfanz today for the first time in years because I found myself wondering if all of the crazy political happenings and debate had changed anyones mind about anything. I had no intention of logging on, and definitely didn't anticipate replying to anything, but then I came across this post from you that mentions me. After reading the next few pages of this conversation I decided to come back to your post and reply.

First of all, I want to say that I hope all is well with you. You always struck me as a good guy. I remember when you first showed up on the site because you were a fan of some guy that the Jazz had acquired who I believe went to college in your hometown (or something like that). It's amazing that you stuck around here so much longer than that player (and so much longer than me). BTW, my life has changed dramatically since the days that I used to hang around here. These days I'm far too busy counting my blessings to spend much time on social media.

Second, I don't buy your claim that there are actual differences between liberal and conservative brains. As evidence I would point to people who were formerly categorized on one side of the aisle, and who are now firmly on the other side of the aisle? Did the composition of their brain change, or did they acquire more information or have some dramatic life experience that changed their mind. I think the latter in nearly every circumstance. I believe that the mistake we are all making is to think that any of us have anything approaching a complete grasp of the facts. This world is way too complex and it is moving far too quickly for any of us to ever have a strong grasp of what's is going on. I've found that the more certain someone is about something, the less that they probably know about it. Just as an example, the scientists who I admire most don't ever speak in absolutes, because they have learned from experience that everything we think that we know is just one experiment away from being proven incorrect. (Note: Anthony Fauci is a purported scientist who appears to understand next to nothing about the scientific method.)

And third (most relevant to the reason that I visited JazzFanz today in the first place), it is fascinating to me to discover that, at least on this site, all of the discussion and convincing that has gone on over all of these years has mostly had the result of solidifying the position of the poster who was trying to do the convincing. There are several names here that I do not know, and I can't be certain whether those are new participants or old participants with different names. Among the ones that I do know, they are all still advancing the same sorts of arguments that they were eight years ago, when I was active on this site. That is amazing! I'm guessing it has something to do with the anonymous nature of this forum. It sort of gives people a free pass to ignore facts that don't go their way, and then just plow forward with the exact same sort of future predictions as if they learned nothing from comparing their predictions to the actual outcomes as the future transformed itself into the past. Of course, I have only looked at the first few pages of this one thread, so maybe I'm off on my assessment.

One final thought: I'm not sure why I'm including this but I feel compelled to (and as I think about it, this dovetails into my earlier contention that liberal and conservative brains are not structurally different). A few winters ago I was backcountry skiing (one of my favorite pastimes). On a long hike up the hill I got into a fascinating political discussion with another skier. He seemed well informed. As we reached the summit he said, "I think you'd probably be interested in a book two of my brothers wrote. It's called The Myth of Left and Right. They just published it last week." I was stunned by the comment, because how could he hold a nugget like that until the very end of our conversation. After all, what were the chances that such a book had been published by his brothers only moments before I met and got into this discussion with him? I bought the book later that day. It was only in hardback, extremely expensive (so much so that I almost decided not to pull the trigger), and (I can now say) worth every penny that I spent on it and more. It lays out what I found to be an incredibly compelling case that left and right really are a myth. It shows what these positions really are, why this is a big problem, and it suggests what can be done about it. I would highly recommend the book to anyone who is truly interested in advancing political discussion. It's now available through Kindle at a much less expensive price. Those who are only interested in trying to shove their opinions down their enemies throats (yeah, I'm looking at you, Thriller), are going to hate it, so I would not recommend it to a guy like him. But many of the rest of you could probably get a lot out of it.
Cheers,
Joe Bagadonuts

So, you are saying both sides are just the same. That is a lot of words to say that. Also, how do you explain the extreme actions taken by the (apparently mythical) right against our country and constitution, if both sides are just the same. Weird way to both-sides this whole thing without a single shred of explanation as to how this applies in the current political climate. Lots of words, essentially said nothing. I have always appreciated your input Joe, this is not your best work.

 

[Sardines]

The most overwhelming factor in determining if you will be a Republican or a Democrat is if you live in an urban area or a rural area.
If you live in a a suburb it will likely be based on where your family came from and where you have closer ties.
The blue spots... that's where a lot of people live relatively close together.

 

[fishonjazz]

Among the ones that I do know, they are all still advancing the same sorts of arguments that they were eight years ago, when I was active on this site. That is amazing!

Look at the timeframe you choose to use. 8 years. Its not amazing or surprising that the people who hated trump 8 years ago still hate him. It would be very very amazing if those who hated him actually liked him now. What has he done exactly in the lasts 8 years for anyone to think he is no longer a dishonest, immoral, corrupt, scandalous douchebag?

What is shocking is that as we as a nation (and world really) have learned in the last 8 years about more lies, scandals, corruption, and immorality that trump has in his closet and some people like him even more. Hard to understand that one.

 

[fishonjazz]

The most overwhelming factor in determining if you will be a Republican or a Democrat is if you live in an urban area or a rural area.
If you live in a a suburb it will likely be based on where your family came from and where you have closer ties.
The blue spots... that's where a lot of people live relatively close together.

And its quite telling that those in the red areas are the most anti immigrant. Most of the immigrants are in the blue areas and most of the people in the blue areas dont hate the immigrants since they live with and around them and know them. Those in the red areas are simply hating and fearing the immigrants because they are being told to hate and fear them by their tvs/phones/radios while lacking little actual interaction or experience with the immigrants that they hate and fear.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

So, you are saying both sides are just the same. That is a lot of words to say that. Also, how do you explain the extreme actions taken by the (apparently mythical) right against our country and constitution, if both sides are just the same. Weird way to both-sides this whole thing without a single shred of explanation as to how this applies in the current political climate. Lots of words, essentially said nothing. I have always appreciated your input Joe, this is not your best work.

That is not at all what the book says, or what I am saying. Among other things, the book demonstrates that what we think of as left and right are actually just an amalgamation of stances on issues, most of which are unrelated to one another, and all of which have periodically switched from one side of the aisle to the other. The result is that someone essentially joins a side, usually because they have a strong opinion about one or two issues, and then through group pressure they essentially adopt all of the other positions that are currently in vogue for their group. Political leaders use this phenomena to their advantage, and in many cases they consolodate or increase their power by pushing issues that, if not for this amalgamation, would not have much support or influence. One of the worst parts about it is that there is evidence that large amounts of the chaos that exist between the two factions is purposely created by puppetmasters who are fueling passion on both sides of the same issues. I cannot possibly lay the entire argument out in a paragraph, and I don't have the time or inclination to become a regular participant on this forum again, but I got a lot out of this book, and I think that you probably would too.

 

[Sardines]

That is not at all what the book says, or what I am saying. Among other things, the book demonstrates that what we think of as left and right are actually just an amalgamation of stances on issues, most of which are unrelated to one another, and all of which have periodically switched from one side of the aisle to the other. The result is that someone essentially joins a side, usually because they have a strong opinion about one or two issues, and then through group pressure they essentially adopt all of the other positions that are currently in vogue for their group. Political leaders use this phenomena to their advantage, and in many cases they consolodate or increase their power by pushing issues that, if not for this amalgamation, would not have much support or influence. One of the worst parts about it is that there is evidence that large amounts of the chaos that exist between the two factions is purposely created by puppetmasters who are fueling passion on both sides of the same issues. I cannot possibly lay the entire argument out in a paragraph, and I don't have the time or inclination to become a regular participant on this forum again, but I got a lot out of this book, and I think that you probably would too.

Sounds like it could possibly be interesting. Also sounds like it might just be "it's the Jews"

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Look at the timeframe you choose to use. 8 years. Its not amazing or surprising that the people who hated trump 8 years ago still hate him. It would be very very amazing if those who hated him actually liked him now. What has he done exactly in the lasts 8 years for anyone to think he is no longer a dishonest, immoral, corrupt, scandalous douchebag?

What is shocking is that as we as a nation (and world really) have learned in the last 8 years about more lies, scandals, corruption, and immorality that trump has in his closet and some people like him even more. Hard to understand that one.

I did not choose that timeframe. It chose me. But the reality is that your core statement is incorrect. There are many prominent people who hated Trump 8 years ago, who like him now. Among those are RFK Jr, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk (until recently, but if you have read either of Elon's bios I doubt you are surprised by this behavior), and numerous others. Moving in the opposite direction are people like Mike Pence, Candace Owens and Bill Barr.

All that aside, my point is not really built around Trump. I understand that some people are convinced that he is one of the worst humans in the history of humanity. The evidence, from my perspective, does not bear that out. That said, he has many weaknesses (he behaves like a 7th grade bully, he speaks and thinks in simplistic terms, he is a womanizer, etc.). To me it's a waste of breath trying to convince anyone to change their mind on the topic of Trump. Everyone is entrenched and polarized, and people on both sides make themselves willingly blind to evidence that points to anything other than the conclusion that they have previously committed themselves to.

I'm far more interested in the broad political agenda. Earlier this year I spent quite a while in Argentina. In fact, I was there when the last US election occurred. Trump only mattered to them, as far as I ever experienced, as a symbol for the same sort of anti-globalist movement that was occurring in their country under Milei. It was really amazing to experience the level of positive energy his government was generating in Argentina during my time there. This resonates with me because I am anti-globalist. I believe that the globalist agenda is driven by an elitist belief that the rules they are committed to imposing on the vast majority of the citizens of the world, should not apply to them. I could give many examples, but here is a very straightforward one. They purport climate change to be the greatest existential threat in the history of humanity. They constantly claim that we are on the brink of this disaster, and that we are on the verge of destroying earth because of our irresponsible use of fossil fuels. They prescribe all sorts of cumbersome measures that they believe that the public at large must take in order to avoid this calamity (don't allow your car to idle, replace beef with mealworms to prevent cow farts, and on and on) while completely ignoring the one individual carbon use choice that dwarfs all others, and this is obviously because that one thing would have a big impact on many of the leaders of the globalism movement, and very little impact upon most of the people they are pushing it on. What is this thing? Private jet travel. A private jet emits more CO2 in 4 hours than the average citizen of a western country emits in a year.

 

[Sardines]

I did not choose that timeframe. It chose me. But the reality is that your core statement is incorrect. There are many prominent people who hated Trump 8 years ago, who like him now. Among those are RFK Jr, Joe Rogan, Elon Musk (until recently, but if you have read either of Elon's bios I doubt you are surprised by this behavior), and numerous others. Moving in the opposite direction are people like Mike Pence, Candace Owens and Bill Barr.

All that aside, my point is not really built around Trump. I understand that some people are convinced that he is one of the worst humans in the history of humanity. The evidence, from my perspective, does not bear that out. That said, he has many weaknesses (he behaves like a 7th grade bully, he speaks and thinks in simplistic terms, he is a womanizer, etc.). To me it's a waste of breath trying to convince anyone to change their mind on the topic of Trump. Everyone is entrenched and polarized, and people on both sides make themselves willingly blind to evidence that points to anything other than the conclusion that they have previously committed themselves to.

I'm far more interested in the broad political agenda. Earlier this year I spent quite a while in Argentina. In fact, I was there when the last US election occurred. Trump only mattered to them, as far as I ever experienced, as a symbol for the same sort of anti-globalist movement that was occurring in their country under Milei. It was really amazing to experience the level of positive energy his government was generating in Argentina during my time there. This resonates with me because I am anti-globalist. I believe that the globalist agenda is driven by an elitist belief that the rules they are committed to imposing on the vast majority of the citizens of the world, should not apply to them. I could give many examples, but here is a very straightforward one. They purport climate change to be the greatest existential threat in the history of humanity. They constantly claim that we are on the brink of this disaster, and that we are on the verge of destroying earth because of our irresponsible use of fossil fuels. They prescribe all sorts of cumbersome measures that they believe that the public at large must take in order to avoid this calamity (don't allow your car to idle, replace beef with mealworms to prevent cow farts, and on and on) while completely ignoring the one individual carbon use choice that dwarfs all others, and this is obviously because that one thing would have a big impact on many of the leaders of the globalism movement, and very little impact upon most of the people they are pushing it on. What is this thing? Private jet travel. A private jet emits more CO2 in 4 hours than the average citizen of a western country emits in a year.

Ah yes, anti-globalism.

Can you make a distinction between anti-globalism and anti-semitism? As far as I can tell they are the same thing under different names. Couple that with a description you wrote for a book that to me sounded like it was thinly veiled references to "it's the Jews fault."

 

[Deleted member 365]

So, you are saying both sides are just the same. That is a lot of words to say that. Also, how do you explain the extreme actions taken by the (apparently mythical) right against our country and constitution, if both sides are just the same. Weird way to both-sides this whole thing without a single shred of explanation as to how this applies in the current political climate. Lots of words, essentially said nothing. I have always appreciated your input Joe, this is not your best work.

And both sidesing this doesn’t help shed any additional light on our political situation but it sure does excuse Trump and the American political right for a lot.

Don’t like brown people being targeted in Los Angeles and other brown people being mindlessly deported to El Salvador? Don’t like ICE agents body slamming an elected senator? Don’t like the president throwing himself a military parade? Don’t like the big beautiful bill that extracts services and wealth from poor and middle class people to the rich? Well, both sides are the same. The left and right don’t exist. They’re actually just same sides to the same coin.

Btw, it should be noted that this speech usually includes cynical and vague references to international elites who want to replace white people with brown people. “Globalists want to replace hard working patriots!” Globalists is always code for “Jews” and these types of conspiracies aren’t anything new. It’s usually because one side (primarily used by the right but was used by Stalin also) to rationalize the right’s embrace of authoritarianism to thwart natural processes of democracy. Why vote the bums out or even vote if both sides are the same?

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