What's new
By:

If I'm Favors/Hayward ... I do not sign an extension

vj_74 said:
This is why I am constantly amused by all the glee and jubiliation at the Burke pick. Its not like as if the Jazz didnt have any lotto picks on their roster before Burke.They had like 4. Thats never been the problem. The big problem, the elephant in the room no one talks about, is the Jazz's willingness to break the bank, to pay up extra if needed, to retain all these picks if all of them play well. That is the challenge right there. Otherwise, we are even further away from sort of contention than we were in 2005.And with Al gone and maybe Maillsap following him,there wont be a whole lot of tradeable players on the Jazz rosterwho can fetch impact players on return.

BTW, if Favors gets the max as somebody suggested earlier, Lindsey should get the boot
Click to expand...

The Jazz's willingness to break the bank???? Isn't this the first year since Al came over that they weren't near the luxury tax or over? This is silly. The Jazz now have 4 top 10 picks, two of which are just now eligible for an extension. When have they had the chance to break the bank? Now, by resigning Al? Not one analysis of Charlotte picking up Al is favorable. Everyone knows what we know, he is a very inefficient offensive player, he gets his numbers, he hurts the offense overall, and he doesn't play defense. Letting him walk was the ONLY option for Utah.

Now, Utah is talking to Favors and Hayward about extensions. Like I said, you look at comparable players and Favors = Jordan and should get an extension starting at 10 million a year. You guys love to talk about Favors' potential, but the facts are that he hasn't gotten any better in three years in the NBA, and comparable players got deals starting at 10 million a year. Plain and simple.

Hayward, same thing. Hayward looks like a Batum/Hill/Martin type player. Their salaries are 10 million, 8 million, and 7 million. So, you start Hayward at 8.5 and go from there. Pretty simple stuff. These guys are very good role players, nothing more. Don't pretend they are something they aren't. Don't pay them to be something they aren't.
 
green said:
The Jazz's willingness to break the bank???? Isn't this the first year since Al came over that they weren't near the luxury tax or over? This is silly. The Jazz now have 4 top 10 picks, two of which are just now eligible for an extension. When have they had the chance to break the bank? Now, by resigning Al? Not one analysis of Charlotte picking up Al is favorable. Everyone knows what we know, he is a very inefficient offensive player, he gets his numbers, he hurts the offense overall, and he doesn't play defense. Letting him walk was the ONLY option for Utah.

Now, Utah is talking to Favors and Hayward about extensions. Like I said, you look at comparable players and Favors = Jordan and should get an extension starting at 10 million a year. You guys love to talk about Favors' potential, but the facts are that he hasn't gotten any better in three years in the NBA, and comparable players got deals starting at 10 million a year. Plain and simple.

Hayward, same thing. Hayward looks like a Batum/Hill/Martin type player. Their salaries are 10 million, 8 million, and 7 million. So, you start Hayward at 8.5 and go from there. Pretty simple stuff. These guys are very good role players, nothing more. Don't pretend they are something they aren't. Don't pay them to be something they aren't.
Click to expand...

The last two paragraphs are spot on.
 
green said:
The Jazz's willingness to break the bank???? Isn't this the first year since Al came over that they weren't near the luxury tax or over? .
Click to expand...

Because of the fact that they unwillingly pushed themselves into luxury tax territory for some time because of a terrible Kirilenko contract? No, that doesnt count

I am talking about paying up for the right players at the right time, when it counts and not cheap out, like they did between 1999-2003, saddling Malone and Stockton with one washed up vet after another just because they gave Malone a big contract.
If they are'nt careful about what they pay for Hayward/Favors, they wont have money to surropund these guys with a decent supporting cast/bench and then they will use the small market excuse to bail out.
 
And if you watched the finals, it was the supporting cast/bench(Neal, Chalmers, Battier, Allen, Green and so on) that bailed out Miami and SanAntone during crucial moments. If a guy like Lebron needs that much help, then you can only imagine how much help second-tier players like Favors and Hayward would need.
 
vj_74 said:
Because of the fact that they unwillingly pushed themselves into luxury tax territory for some time because of a terrible Kirilenko contract? No, that doesnt count

I am talking about paying up for the right players at the right time, when it counts and not cheap out, like they did between 1999-2003, saddling Malone and Stockton with one washed up vet after another just because they gave Malone a big contract.
If they are'nt careful about what they pay for Hayward/Favors, they wont have money to surropund these guys with a decent supporting cast/bench and then they will use the small market excuse to bail out.
Click to expand...

I agree. That's why people mentioning Hayward and Favors for over 10 million each are crazy. Those contracts will end up being AK/Ostertag contracts. Both those contracts cost us titles. The Jazz need to be smart here and ONLY pay what the market says they are worth.
 
I think the 10 mil number for Hayward is likely. Favors is going to get a bigger deal 12-14 mil. It is just the marketplace value for good young players. If we can get them at a reduced rate that is even better.
 
Qman said:
I think the 10 mil number for Hayward is likely. Favors is going to get a bigger deal 12-14 mil. It is just the marketplace value for good young players. If we can get them at a reduced rate that is even better.
Click to expand...

No, it's not. Show me where players that performed like Favors and Hayward got over 10 million a year. Please, do. You do realize that 12-14 million for Favors is a MAX deal? You would give a max deal to a player that gave you 8 pts, 6 rebs and 49% fg over the last three years? You are insane. If you think he is worth that then you do not extend him because he is NOT worth that yet. Let him play this year out and then match the best offer he receives next year. Do not AK this guy and screw your team over.
 
green said:
No, it's not. Show me where players that performed like Favors and Hayward got over 10 million a year. Please, do. You do realize that 12-14 million for Favors is a MAX deal? You would give a max deal to a player that gave you 8 pts, 6 rebs and 49% fg over the last three years? You are insane. If you think he is worth that then you do not extend him because he is NOT worth that yet. Let him play this year out and then match the best offer he receives next year. Do not AK this guy and screw your team over.
Click to expand...

Are you predicting Favors' numbers will remain the same this year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/favorde01.html

Favors' per 36 numbers were 14 ppg, 11 rpg and 2.6 blocks with 5 free throws drawn a game. Those are valuable numbers, especially coupled with the simple improvements he can make to his game. The Jazz are also privy to exactly how much progress he is making over this summer.

Favors defensive rating is 101. Tyson Chandler's defense rating was 102 last year. Noah's rating 100. (Lower is better). DeAndre Jordan's rating was 104.

In other words Favors really is that good at defense. He is also one or two offensive moves away from being a significant threat on the offensive end too.

Athletic bigs who can play center or power forward and protect the rim are at a premium.

Asik's price was 3 years 25 mil. Favors is a better player than Asik.

Yes the deal is on the high side. But it is market value for Favors.

AK is a bad comparison because of his injuries and frail body. AK also never fit the way the Jazz played with Memo and Boozer and Deron. AK needed the ball in his hands a fair amount of the time. Deron (by design) had the ball all the time.

Favors fits our system quite well.
 
Qman said:
Are you predicting Favors' numbers will remain the same this year?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/favorde01.html

Favors' per 36 numbers were 14 ppg, 11 rpg and 2.6 blocks with 5 free throws drawn a game. Those are valuable numbers, especially coupled with the simple improvements he can make to his game. The Jazz are also privy to exactly how much progress he is making over this summer.

Favors defensive rating is 101. Tyson Chandler's defense rating was 102 last year. Noah's rating 100. (Lower is better). DeAndre Jordan's rating was 104.

In other words Favors really is that good at defense. He is also one or two offensive moves away from being a significant threat on the offensive end too.

Athletic bigs who can play center or power forward and protect the rim are at a premium.

Asik's price was 3 years 25 mil. Favors is a better player than Asik.

Yes the deal is on the high side. But it is market value for Favors.

AK is a bad comparison because of his injuries and frail body. AK also never fit the way the Jazz played with Memo and Boozer and Deron. AK needed the ball in his hands a fair amount of the time. Deron (by design) had the ball all the time.

Favors fits our system quite well.
Click to expand...

Like I said, if you think Favors is worth that money, then DO NOT EXTEND HIM. Make him earn it. Up to this point, he has played like DeAndre Jordan. Jordan got a 10 mill a year deal to start. Do NOT give him Asik money. He hasn't earned it, and he hasn't improved in three years in the NBA. Don't make the same mistake with Favors that you did with AK, which is giving him max money when NOBODY is offering him max money. Wait until next summer, see what he does this year, then match whatever offer he gets. If its the max, then GREAT. It means he drastically improved and earned it. If it is less, then GREAT. It means you didn't make the same mistake you made with AK and you are getting him for market value.

I am so glad you guys aren't GM's. These are the EXACT SAME conversations we had about AK when the Jazz signed him TOO EARLY, gave him MAX money, and he NEVER lived up to it, and his contract cost us Raja Bell, which probably cost us a title the next year. Don't overpay when you don't have to. We aren't stealing him, and there is ZERO chance we lose him. There is NO reason to pay him for work we haven't done yet.
 
vj_74 said:
He was the best PG in a weak draft, that does'nt say a whole lot about how he is going to play at the highest level, especially when his defense has received mixed reviews

That said, iam happy that the Jazz were proactive and all that in grabbing him, but if they are banking on "develop all lotto picks simulatenously and compete for contention" model, there is no such model like that. If it is there, it is going to cost a lot and the Jazz dont have Durants or Hardens exactly with their lotto picks, but they would till have to pay up a lot to retain Hayward or Favors
Click to expand...

What the **** are talking about? Develop the youth see what we have, surround them with comp players...there are models like that. If you don't like this model you can always become a fan of the heat or any other large market team. This is what we are and I find it more exciting growing our own team.
 
Vermin said:
What the **** are talking about? Develop the youth see what we have, surround them with comp players...there are models like that. If you don't like this model you can always become a fan of the heat or any other large market team. This is what we are and I find it more exciting growing our own team.
Click to expand...

He talks about the Jazz not shelling out money for players, then he talks about the Jazz jumping the gun and overpaying players which would restrict their ability to pay player who deserve it, then he says that building through the draft isn't possible, but he ignores Indiana, Memphis, SA, OKC, Chicago who ALL DID EXACTLY THAT.

Only Miami and LA Lakers didn't build through the draft (even though the draft was a HUGE part of their success with Wade, Kobe, Bynum all being players taken through the draft or draft day trades). Even Boston built their Big 3 through draft picks.

He is talking out both sides of his mouth and not making much sense.
 
green said:
Like I said, if you think Favors is worth that money, then DO NOT EXTEND HIM. Make him earn it. Up to this point, he has played like DeAndre Jordan. Jordan got a 10 mill a year deal to start. Do NOT give him Asik money. He hasn't earned it, and he hasn't improved in three years in the NBA. Don't make the same mistake with Favors that you did with AK, which is giving him max money when NOBODY is offering him max money. Wait until next summer, see what he does this year, then match whatever offer he gets. If its the max, then GREAT. It means he drastically improved and earned it. If it is less, then GREAT. It means you didn't make the same mistake you made with AK and you are getting him for market value.

I am so glad you guys aren't GM's. These are the EXACT SAME conversations we had about AK when the Jazz signed him TOO EARLY, gave him MAX money, and he NEVER lived up to it, and his contract cost us Raja Bell, which probably cost us a title the next year. Don't overpay when you don't have to. We aren't stealing him, and there is ZERO chance we lose him. There is NO reason to pay him for work we haven't done yet.
Click to expand...

Okay here are the risks/downsides to waiting:

1. If Favors really goes to RFA and signs an offer sheet-said contract will be for 4 years. An extension can be for 5.

2. The real chance that Favors is becomes upset with the Utah Jazz and demands a trade. The ZERO risk thing is rather optimistic.

If we do offer an extension now, then I agree it should be in the 8-10 mil range. It is a risk. However having Favors on a below market deal would set the team up for some championship runs.

There are reasons to wait it out. But there are reasons to do the extension now.

Of course this is all pie in the sky thinking. The is almost no chance any agent would recommend to Favors to take an extension this year unless it is for the max. I think most people expect Favors to be work a max contract by the end of the season.
 
Qman said:
Okay here are the risks/downsides to waiting:

1. If Favors really goes to RFA and signs an offer sheet-said contract will be for 4 years. An extension can be for 5.

2. The real chance that Favors is becomes upset with the Utah Jazz and demands a trade. The ZERO risk thing is rather optimistic.

If we do offer an extension now, then I agree it should be in the 8-10 mil range. It is a risk. However having Favors on a below market deal would set the team up for some championship runs.

There are reasons to wait it out. But there are reasons to do the extension now.

Of course this is all pie in the sky thinking. The is almost no chance any agent would recommend to Favors to take an extension this year unless it is for the max. I think most people expect Favors to be work a max contract by the end of the season.
Click to expand...

1 - Again, a reason to wait.

2 - Show me players who were upset, had the restricted deals matched, then demanded trades. This is what insecure people worry about. Favors is more concerned about getting a max deal than where he plays.

3 - I've said over and over and over again, extend Favors starting at around 10 million. You are the one that said we should extend him at 12. Again, talking out both sides of your mouth.

4 - Your agent is going to tell him to take the money. He has ZERO offensive game. NONE. What makes you think he will suddenly explode this year? He hasn't improved in three years. He was given the starting job over Millsap and WAS AWFUL. He can't stay on the floor without fouling out. I'm sorry, you don't suddenly wake up and have all three problems fixed. He plays for a coach with ZERO offensive system, and ZERO ability to put players in positions to succeed. Our offense this year will be run through Kanter, NOT Favors, because Kanter can play Jefferson's game.

I haven't heard a single NBA expert mention Favors as a breakout player. NO ONE BUT SILLY UTAH FANS THINKS FAVORS IS A MAX PLAYER. Sorry. He hasn't shown anything otherwise. Heck, look at his best game last year:

23 pts, 15 rebs ON 20 shots. There are a lot of players that can get you 23 pts on 20 shots. Not max players, but a lot of players. Do we really want another Al-type player?

Look at Kanter's best games:

Dallas, 17 pts, 7-9 shooting
Cleveland, 17 pts, 8-11 shooting
Mil - 18 pts, 8-13 shooting
Cha - 23 pts, 10-12 shooting
Mil - 17 pts, 7-9 shooting
OKC - 18 pts, 8-11 shooting

He gets similar number WITH HALF THE SHOTS.

Now, Favors isn't bad, but he isn't sniffing max money yet. Only a fool would think of Favors and max money in the same sentence at this point.
 
green said:
1 - Again, a reason to wait.

2 - Show me players who were upset, had the restricted deals matched, then demanded trades. This is what insecure people worry about. Favors is more concerned about getting a max deal than where he plays.

3 - I've said over and over and over again, extend Favors starting at around 10 million. You are the one that said we should extend him at 12. Again, talking out both sides of your mouth.

4 - Your agent is going to tell him to take the money. He has ZERO offensive game. NONE. What makes you think he will suddenly explode this year? He hasn't improved in three years. He was given the starting job over Millsap and WAS AWFUL. He can't stay on the floor without fouling out. I'm sorry, you don't suddenly wake up and have all three problems fixed. He plays for a coach with ZERO offensive system, and ZERO ability to put players in positions to succeed. Our offense this year will be run through Kanter, NOT Favors, because Kanter can play Jefferson's game.

I haven't heard a single NBA expert mention Favors as a breakout player. NO ONE BUT SILLY UTAH FANS THINKS FAVORS IS A MAX PLAYER. Sorry. He hasn't shown anything otherwise. Heck, look at his best game last year:

23 pts, 15 rebs ON 20 shots. There are a lot of players that can get you 23 pts on 20 shots. Not max players, but a lot of players. Do we really want another Al-type player?

Look at Kanter's best games:

Dallas, 17 pts, 7-9 shooting
Cleveland, 17 pts, 8-11 shooting
Mil - 18 pts, 8-13 shooting
Cha - 23 pts, 10-12 shooting
Mil - 17 pts, 7-9 shooting
OKC - 18 pts, 8-11 shooting

He gets similar number WITH HALF THE SHOTS.

Now, Favors isn't bad, but he isn't sniffing max money yet. Only a fool would think of Favors and max money in the same sentence at this point.
Click to expand...


I feel like only The Thriller has worse takes on Jazz basketball than you do.
 
It will be criminal if the Jazz manage to extend Favors for only 10 mil per. Recall Portland offering Hibbert a max contract back when he was averaging 12.8 PPG and 8.8 RPG, with 2 BPG. And this was with full-fledged starter minutes.

If you don't think a team will toss a massive contract at an athletic big-man with a decent free-throw shooting rate and very competent defense, you're delusional. Favors is in a different stratosphere than DJ
 
And the whole "teams won't take a chance on a player who hasn't been given starting minutes" excuse is ********-- see James Harden, and Omer Asik.
 
green said:
So, if Favors' agent demands a max this summer, do you give it to him?
Click to expand...

This summer? Seriously? There's zero point. We might as well wait until free agency, where we can match his market value
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top