Is there a fundamental misunderstanding betwen Mormons and Muslims? help solving the puzzle!!

[Hantlers]

What about the people living between the time of the old testament and new testament, or before the old testament was written? Was the bible sufficient for them? There are many different parts of the word of god, and claiming that the bible is the end all be all to religion is short sighted and against even what the bible says when it talks about coming in the mouth of two or three witnesses.



I think mormons can explain all the ordinances they do as mentioned in the bible. Baptism, sacraments, priesthood, marriage, baptism for the dead, all these things are at least vaguely mentioned in the bible. The problem with the bible is that there are as many interpretations to the bible as there are people on the earth. That is where the disagreements come in.


So, by this logic, all christians should be catholics in order to be right. However, most of the world will agree that the Catholics messed up in a lot of different places along the line, hence the need for different churches. Mormonism is just another form of reformation or restoration. In my mind, if you respect Wycliffe, Luther, Anglicans, Protestants, etc, then you should respect mormons as christians as well, and realize that we are all following christ.



In my mind, this logic would say that the New Testament is a farce, and that we don't need it. As I said above, any testament of Christ is good, and if it is from a prophet of god, should be regarded as scripture. If I am being honest with myself about being a disciple of Christ, I find the Old Testament tiresome, I have read the New Testament a bunch, The Book of Mormon as well, and frankly, I get bored when I read the same old scriptures. New editions are welcome, and should be accepted by Christians. The method for accepting them in your life as scripture is the same as it has always been; does it inspire you? Did you pray apply the teachings in your life to see good or improvement? And have you asked God in sincerity of heart if they are true?






Lots of Mormons have problems with some things Joseph Smith taught. The things that Mormons accept as scripture are generally not the obscure documents found in the history of the church. LDS scripture as generally accepted includes the New and Old Testaments, the Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants (revelations from smith, Brigham Young, and a few other modern prophets) and The Pearl of Great Price (a translation of what was supposedly the book of Abraham, although it is widely disputed whether or not this is real or some story Joseph Smith wrote).

As far as black people and the priesthood goes, this is one of the biggest hangups that LDS people have. At least, in my circle of friends, it is. I personally have a huge problem with it. I have thought many times of leaving the church because of it. In fact, the church basically came out and blamed it on Brigham Young being a product of a racially charged time in the history of the world. However, if we look at the history of prophets in the bible and other records, we find that the word of God is indeed infallible, but prophets themselves are not. Noah was a mess, getting drunk and disobeying the Lord for a while, and then sleeping with his son's wife. Jonah ran away and almost got a bunch of people killed in a huge storm because of his stubbornness. I am sure if we had a better record of ancient prophets, we would see tons more examples of a bunch of weird dudes who somehow had a great connection with God. That is just they way humanity works.

Sorry this post is so long. Just thought there were a bunch of interesting things in this thread.

Carry on.

Really good post. Thanks!

I'd just like to add that while prophets, like all other humans, were/are sinful, their words and stories were divinely inspired and infallible. And that any man who had even one prophecy, even one bit of his words or stories not come true, then he is a false prophet. God's edicts are always true, but often we choose not to follow them.

 

[b_line]

Really good post. Thanks!

I'd just like to add that while prophets, like all other humans, were/are sinful, their words and stories were divinely inspired and infallible. And that any man who had even one prophecy, even one bit of his words or stories not come true, then he is a false prophet. God's edicts are always true, but often we choose not to follow them.

Agree with the bolded part. Not sure how I feel about the second part, and my reasoning is that sometimes circumstances change. Like what if a person has a change of heart, and then a prophecy has a different outcome? Personal choice has some role to play in God's doings.

Thanks for the discussion in this thread. It could have turned out to be a giant mess, but is actually an interesting read.

 

[Siro]

Yeah, you should look at the arc of how the creation of a religion has been utilized by different rulers to suit their best interests, and investigate how the arc of Islamic history has culminated in the widespread adoption and advocacy of only one style of interpretation of faith (that of course has no superiority over any other interpretation of the Islamic religion).

Of course we are where we are because of how history unfolded. How else can it be? And while my comment was in jest, I fully believe in the essence of it. I'm not a believer, and to me Islam is just another ideology in the endless ocean of human ideologies. And it is an ideology that the world would be much better without. That obviously applies to many other ideologies, but I tend to bring up Islam because it touches the lives of many of the people I personally know. Muslims of the Muslim world are the ones who really pay the price Islam demands. The religion has obliterated Middle Eastern intellectual culture, and there are virtually no worthwhile Muslim thinkers as far as the rest of humanity is concerned. The philosophical discourse within the Muslim world is over nonsense like whether it is permissible for women to drive or go to school. That bothers me more than all the violence and bloodshed, because it tells me that these things are here to stay.

I'm just not seeing a path to the modernization that Islam desperately needs. The sad fact is that Islam acts as a serious barrier to progress wherever it's present. Even in more modern places like Turkey, it is hard to argue that Islam adds up to a net positive. How can you blame me for being resentful when I don't see a way forward for the culture that I come from?

 

[b_line]

^^ Similar things were said about Confucian principles in China around 900-1000 CE. China basically had the beginnings of an industrial revolution, only to fall back and be scared into traditional thought because of the confucian principles. Can you imagine how different the world would have been now if the East had been the part of the world to industrialize first?

This is the problem with religion. How do you separate the cultural element from religion? In a mormon context, the religion has created a hard working, family centered people, but it has also had the effect of alienating those who are not of the same faith in Utah. It would be a terrible thing to get rid of religion on a wholesale level, because of the good it supplies, but taking the bad out if it is the challenge we face as a species in the future.

 

[Hantlers]

I just realized when I hit the reply to quote thing on b_lines post it took me to about halfway through, so I missed the majority of it. I'll reply to the rest when I'm not at work and I'm not on my phone.


A good reminder you had I liked is that the gospel message is the most important. Jesus came to save us from our sins, and He is the only way to salvation. Not through any type of works, but through faith alone. What a glorious message.

 

[Hantlers]

Agree with the bolded part. Not sure how I feel about the second part, and my reasoning is that sometimes circumstances change. Like what if a person has a change of heart, and then a prophecy has a different outcome? Personal choice has some role to play in God's doings.

Thanks for the discussion in this thread. It could have turned out to be a giant mess, but is actually an interesting read.

I would counter that while we have free choice, if God says something is going to happen, then it's going to happen. Man cannot change or alter God's plan. If we could, He wouldn't be much of a God.

 

[Hantlers]

^^ Similar things were said about Confucian principles in China around 900-1000 CE. China basically had the beginnings of an industrial revolution, only to fall back and be scared into traditional thought because of the confucian principles. Can you imagine how different the world would have been now if the East had been the part of the world to industrialize first?

This is the problem with religion. How do you separate the cultural element from religion? In a mormon context, the religion has created a hard working, family centered people, but it has also had the effect of alienating those who are not of the same faith in Utah. It would be a terrible thing to get rid of religion on a wholesale level, because of the good it supplies, but taking the bad out if it is the challenge we face as a species in the future.

Thus lies the problem of fallible people trying to live an infallible life. We will always sin, what matters is how we respond to any sin and that we realize the grace of God that He wants us to be saved and live with Him if we choose to.

 

[MVP]

Like many of the revelations given to the people of the Middle East by God via Muhammad, the disclosure of avoiding pork was contextual.

Look into the history of pork consumption of that era, and the health problems that it caused.

And that is one of my biggest issues with keep following superstitious beliefs and practices of old ages. So people in hot climates had no water to wash their penises and came out with idea of " God's ordered" circumcision - fine, maybe it was making sense 5k years ago. These days when we have warm water and soap readily available - it is useless outdated ritual which nobody should be doing. Same with pork - yes trichinosis and pork tapeworm is still around but meat testing and proper cooking makes those infections virtually no more common than beef tapeworm or fish tapeworm. Today pork is most consumed meat worldwide despite 1.5 bil muslims and small number of jews who do not eat it. It has much better qualities than beef as well. So again - why follow old superstitions?
Oh and by the way I found kosher food restrictions most ridiculous of all times - maybe because they are the oldest when people where least educated ( makes sense). Sea creatures with no scales are abominations and God prohibits them from being consumed? Shrimp? Squid? Eel?Scallops? Lobster? Seriously...how anybody can be so dumb to come with something like this...Don't mix up milk products and meat products? So cheeseburger is an abomination? Pizza? How is this relevant to 21st century???

 

[NAOS]

Let me see here........ If I start with the premise that something is true, and/or assume that there is only one truth, then................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... I find a lot of things that are derivative of my initial premises and/or assumptions.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Is there a fundamental misunderstanding betwen Mormons and Muslims? help solv...

And that is one of my biggest issues with keep following superstitious beliefs and practices of old ages. So people in hot climates had no water to wash their penises and came out with idea of " God's ordered" circumcision - fine, maybe it was making sense 5k years ago. These days when we have warm water and soap readily available - it is useless outdated ritual which nobody should be doing. Same with pork - yes trichinosis and pork tapeworm is still around but meat testing and proper cooking makes those infections virtually no more common than beef tapeworm or fish tapeworm. Today pork is most consumed meat worldwide despite 1.5 bil muslims and small number of jews who do not eat it. It has much better qualities than beef as well. So again - why follow old superstitions?

The only reason the ruler of a country would continue to impose legislation that has completely lost it's contextual veracity, and doesn't belong in the 21st century, is if it suits a particular strategic, political, or sociocultural agenda of theirs

Oh and by the way I found kosher food restrictions most ridiculous of all times - maybe because they are the oldest when people where least educated ( makes sense). Sea creatures with no scales are abominations and God prohibits them from being consumed? Shrimp? Squid? Eel?Scallops? Lobster? Seriously...how anybody can be so dumb to come with something like this...Don't mix up milk products and meat products? So cheeseburger is an abomination? Pizza? How is this relevant to 21st century???

It's relevant in building a sense of community-- I imagine. Either that, or those who uphold their rules are convinced that revelations aren't given contextually, and their interpretations most closely approach the revelations.



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[Stoked]

I just realized when I hit the reply to quote thing on b_lines post it took me to about halfway through, so I missed the majority of it. I'll reply to the rest when I'm not at work and I'm not on my phone.


A good reminder you had I liked is that the gospel message is the most important. Jesus came to save us from our sins, and He is the only way to salvation. Not through any type of works, but through faith alone. What a glorious message.

Define faith...

 

[Hantlers]

Define faith...

I think Hebrews 11:1 puts it the best, but a simple way is trusting in something you can't prove.

What I'm saying is that the Bible teaches that we are saved through our faith, not our works.