Israel Commences Ground Invasion into Gaza.

[♪alt13]

The Explosive, Inside Story of How John Kerry Built an Israel-Palestine Peace Plan—and Watched It Crumble

https://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

 

[eacioban]

Hmm interesting this video was created by a Jewish Woman. Didn't expect that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Paley

As a jew and as an Israeli, I say this video is dumb.
Over simplifying the complex reality always results in an unbelievable propaganda effort. I get it that starting to explain reality to someone who has no clue about it is impossible, but dumbing them down is worst.
I usually do not comment here on political subjects, but I do want to send one clear message to you all:

Most of you probably have no real understanding about the nature of the Israeli-Hamas conflict. Take notice I do not classify it as Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A lot of you sound very reasonable opinions that are based on poor or incomplete knowledge. I strongly support humane attitudes, but relaying on them alone is nothing more than wishful thinking. If you do want to understand, I urge you study the conflict before you share your opinion. I say this as a true believer in peaceful conflict resolution and as an historian. When I was researching the American colonies - Native American conflict, I quickly realized i'm in no position to declare any moral opinion about it as I can not paint a detailed enough picture of it for me to learn from. I sure had some thoughts about it, but the facts kept tilting them from side to side.

I advise you and urge you to do the same.

 

[♪alt13]

As a jew and as an Israeli, I say this video is dumb.
Over simplifying the complex reality always results in an unbelievable propaganda effort. I get it that starting to explain reality to someone who has no clue about it is impossible, but dumbing them down is worst.
I usually do not comment here on political subjects, but I do want to send one clear message to you all:

Most of you probably have no real understanding about the nature of the Israeli-Hamas conflict. Take notice I do not classify it as Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A lot of you sound very reasonable opinions that are based on poor or incomplete knowledge. I strongly support humane attitudes, but relaying on them alone is nothing more than wishful thinking. If you do want to understand, I urge you study the conflict before you share your opinion. I say this as a true believer in peaceful conflict resolution and as an historian. When I was researching the American colonies - Native American conflict, I quickly realized i'm in no position to declare any moral opinion about it as I can not paint a detailed enough picture of it for me to learn from. I sure had some thoughts about it, but the facts kept tilting them from side to side.

I advise you and urge you to do the same.

Do you believe Israelis and Palestinians can live in a single state? (non-apartheid) Cuz it seems that Israel is making a future Palestinian state less viable with every passing year.

Honestly this thread needs a reasonable Israeli perspective. Dutch is making y'all look bad.

 

[eacioban]

Do you believe Israelis and Palestinians can live in a single state? (non-apartheid) Cuz it seems that Israel is making a future Palestinian state less viable with every passing year.

Honestly this thread needs a reasonable Israeli perspective. Dutch is making y'all look bad.

I believe a single state solution is not a solution at all, but a contradiction to both sides' aspirations. Unlike the case of South Africa, and more like the cases of former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia, former Austro-Hungarian Empire, Spain and the Basks, you can't have two, or more, nationally different populations living together in good terms. I do believe that the two nations solution is slowly heading in the right direction as we speak. You see, Hamas actually drive the Palestinians closer to Israel than they wish. I think the Palestinian people start to realize that residing next to Israel is not that bad of a way to live. I think that the fact that Hamas and its leaders spent literally hundreds of millions dollars on weapons and tunnels that mostly failed, shows that they can't be the solution. On the other hand, If the Palestinians can guarantee to stop all terror attempts, they will enjoy Israel's and the world's financial and infrastructure support. Just so you know, most of the tunnels that Hamas built are made of Israeli concrete that was sent to the Gaza strip in order to rebuild it after the 2008 operation.

Sadly, I believe the current conflict was unavoidable due to Hamas's persistence to harm Israel, even if that means hurting the Palestinians even more.
Even more saddening is the fact that the current conflict strengthened the rightist radicals in Israel, and more people than I would like started to support their views. It is a natural and frightening phenomena, but it happens everywhere in the world, much like what happened after 9/11 in the US.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Annual growth rate of Gaza population 2.91% (13th in the world)

Annual growth rate of Israel population 1.44% (84th in the world)

The Palestine population is growing at over double the rate as the Jewish population.

Source https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2002rank.html

I may be naïve and uneducated on the subject but at this point it is all speculation, nobody knows for certain what will happen. If I had to speculate I predict that it will be a single state ruled by Palestine in the future.

 

[One Brow]

What country has true self-rule these days? North Korea, maybe? We live in an age where sovereignty is given up in order to achieve things like economic cooperation, peace, etc.

The very terms "economic cooperation" and "peace" require that the country involved be able to decide for itself the level of cooperation and the level of peace. Your mental gymnastics are quite impressive.

 

[eacioban]

Annual growth rate of Gaza population 2.91% (13th in the world)

Annual growth rate of Israel population 1.44% (84th in the world)

The Palestine population is growing at over double the rate as the Jewish population.

Source https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2002rank.html

I may be naïve and uneducated on the subject but at this point it is all speculation, nobody knows for certain what will happen. If I had to speculate I predict that it will be a single state ruled by Palestine in the future.

You may be right, but you have to take into consideration the fact that most of the women in Gaza are being deprived of education. With female education being the single most significant factor controlling reproduction rates, it is quite possible that enhancing the welfare of the Gaza Palestinians and providing decent education for all, might change your prediction.
Current situation in Gaza is intolerable for the casual Palestinian. They do not have a proper civilian infrastructure whatsoever. The vast amounts of money invested over there wasn't translated into civilian welfare at all. Each tunnel alone costed them around $1,000,000, and Israel found 34 by now, with estimated number much higher. Developing the impressive rockets arsenal costed them around $5,000,000. This money could have been directed to schools and welfare, but they didn't do it. Hamas secures its future by mass numbers, and you shouldn't educate you civilians to achieve that. They should secure their future by educating they society, but that would possibly end their rule over the Gaza Palestinians.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Actually now that I look back the Japanese defeated the Chinese in world war 2 and the Chinese had 10 times their population.

 

[eacioban]

Actually now that I look back the Japanese defeated the Chinese in world war 2 and the Chinese had 10 times their population.

Just to be historically accurate - China was a shattered country back than, having suffered foreign invasions and the world's worst civil war, that resulted in a regime that physically oppressed the population. Japan was a nation that was never invaded until than, preparing for a war and conquest for more than a decade.

 

[The Blue Elephant]

Just to be historically accurate - China was a shattered country back than, having suffered foreign invasions and the world's worst civil war, that resulted in a regime that physically oppressed the population. Japan was a nation that was never invaded until than, preparing for a war and conquest for more than a decade.

I see the similarities in China and Gaza even more now Just playing.

On side note I knew this kid in high school who was from China and he ****ing hated Japanese people so hard. His username for video games/online accounts was always "japkiller". He views Chinamen as a superior race. He claimed to study Microbiology because he said he wanted to create a virus that targets and kills Japanese people. Whenever he brought up how great China is I always mention they lost to Japan to inferior numbers and he got mad. My ancestors are from Norway so he always tried to talk **** about vikings but really couldn't . Man I hated that kid, he loved telling your momma jokes and thought he was clever.

 

[eacioban]

I see the similarities in China and Gaza even more now Just playing.

Well, the first thing you learn from history is that it may be similar but is never the same.

Regarding that kid - hatred is such a waste of energy... to quote a dead Israeli poet: "dried bones do not fight wars"

 

[GVC]

I believe a single state solution is not a solution at all, but a contradiction to both sides' aspirations. Unlike the case of South Africa, and more like the cases of former Yugoslavia, former Czechoslovakia, former Austro-Hungarian Empire, Spain and the Basks, you can't have two, or more, nationally different populations living together in good terms. I do believe that the two nations solution is slowly heading in the right direction as we speak. You see, Hamas actually drive the Palestinians closer to Israel than they wish. I think the Palestinian people start to realize that residing next to Israel is not that bad of a way to live. I think that the fact that Hamas and its leaders spent literally hundreds of millions dollars on weapons and tunnels that mostly failed, shows that they can't be the solution. On the other hand, If the Palestinians can guarantee to stop all terror attempts, they will enjoy Israel's and the world's financial and infrastructure support. Just so you know, most of the tunnels that Hamas built are made of Israeli concrete that was sent to the Gaza strip in order to rebuild it after the 2008 operation.

Sadly, I believe the current conflict was unavoidable due to Hamas's persistence to harm Israel, even if that means hurting the Palestinians even more.
Even more saddening is the fact that the current conflict strengthened the rightist radicals in Israel, and more people than I would like started to support their views. It is a natural and frightening phenomena, but it happens everywhere in the world, much like what happened after 9/11 in the US.

Maybe I'm not understanding, but it seems as though Gaza, led by a more violent regime, has more autonomy than the West Bank, led by a much more peaceful regime. Further, Israeli settlements continue to be built in the West Bank. Fatah seems to be the most reasonable party in this whole mess at this point, and they get **** on the most. Why would Gazans have any confidence in peace if it's been completely ineffective in the West Bank?