Suuuuure, just like Venda was an independent state for a time. Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.
Israel-Hamas War
- Thread starter Rubashov
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JimLes
Well-Known Member
Last time I checked, ANC wasn't Hamas nor was their party platform built on driving white people into the sea or ending the very existence of Afrikaners as a nation.
JimLes
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This is why us Jews get upset when people criticize Israel. The standards are always different for Israel. Just look at the usual tropes.
Israel is like South Africa. Except the small part where South Africa wasn't attacked by its neighbouring countries multiple times over it's 75-year existence. Nor were there any neighbours who declared war on SA and never signed a peace treaty, even 8 decades later. Nor did SA win that war whose sole aim was physical destruction of its people, only to find themselves facing all kinds of pressure to sign treaties with a state utterly unwilling to sign one. And might I add, a state that approaches the idea of negotiations as if they are the victor. Countless treaties have been signed over the past couple of centuries where the attacker/loser was punished, but apparently that doesn't apply when Israel is involved.
Israel is a case of settler colonialism. Yeah, so are so many other countries in the world. How come we never hear about Argentina or Mexico or even Russia being guilty of that? Why is Israel singled out for carving their country out by force when all freaking countries were created by force? Western Sahara has been occupied by Morocco for decades as well, but look up the disparity in UN resolutions dealing with Israel and the ones dealing with Morocco. Go ahead, look it up. Are there protests in Times Square against Morocco? Are there any campaigns to boycot the country and its products? I'm certainly not aware of anything.
It's morally unacceptable to have Israel defined as a Jewish state. Except. of course, that most countries are nationial states. Certainly in Europe, to which Israel belongs culturally, if not geographically. Other than Switzerland and microstates, countries in Europe are national states. Proudly and openly so, might I add. The first sentence of the Croatian constitution says "The Republic of Croatia is established as the nation state of the Croatian people." No one's bothered that Denmark is the state of Danish people or that Hungary is the state of Hungarian people.
Jews are not "a people" but a religion. Ah yes. Apparently the Jews have not been an identifiable, separate ethnic group for milennia, while Danish and Hungarian people have existed forever. Also, identity is not a subjective, personal thing, but rather an objective category best left to decide by the outsiders.
The return to 1967 borders would fix everything. Never mind that those borders carry no legal meaning and are simply a result of ceasefire lines, the Palestinians don't actually want a two-state solution. The issue isn't that Hamas wants to see Israel destroyed, it's that most Palestinians want Israel destroyed. Here's a poll from 2020.
And again, I remind you, this is the position of a side that was defeated in a war they started. 3/5ths of them apparently believe that starting point of the negotiations is to ask for everything, and then increase demands from there.
Israel is like South Africa. Except the small part where South Africa wasn't attacked by its neighbouring countries multiple times over it's 75-year existence. Nor were there any neighbours who declared war on SA and never signed a peace treaty, even 8 decades later. Nor did SA win that war whose sole aim was physical destruction of its people, only to find themselves facing all kinds of pressure to sign treaties with a state utterly unwilling to sign one. And might I add, a state that approaches the idea of negotiations as if they are the victor. Countless treaties have been signed over the past couple of centuries where the attacker/loser was punished, but apparently that doesn't apply when Israel is involved.
Israel is a case of settler colonialism. Yeah, so are so many other countries in the world. How come we never hear about Argentina or Mexico or even Russia being guilty of that? Why is Israel singled out for carving their country out by force when all freaking countries were created by force? Western Sahara has been occupied by Morocco for decades as well, but look up the disparity in UN resolutions dealing with Israel and the ones dealing with Morocco. Go ahead, look it up. Are there protests in Times Square against Morocco? Are there any campaigns to boycot the country and its products? I'm certainly not aware of anything.
It's morally unacceptable to have Israel defined as a Jewish state. Except. of course, that most countries are nationial states. Certainly in Europe, to which Israel belongs culturally, if not geographically. Other than Switzerland and microstates, countries in Europe are national states. Proudly and openly so, might I add. The first sentence of the Croatian constitution says "The Republic of Croatia is established as the nation state of the Croatian people." No one's bothered that Denmark is the state of Danish people or that Hungary is the state of Hungarian people.
Jews are not "a people" but a religion. Ah yes. Apparently the Jews have not been an identifiable, separate ethnic group for milennia, while Danish and Hungarian people have existed forever. Also, identity is not a subjective, personal thing, but rather an objective category best left to decide by the outsiders.
The return to 1967 borders would fix everything. Never mind that those borders carry no legal meaning and are simply a result of ceasefire lines, the Palestinians don't actually want a two-state solution. The issue isn't that Hamas wants to see Israel destroyed, it's that most Palestinians want Israel destroyed. Here's a poll from 2020.
And again, I remind you, this is the position of a side that was defeated in a war they started. 3/5ths of them apparently believe that starting point of the negotiations is to ask for everything, and then increase demands from there.
I don't know enough about any of this to take a side, but you make some valid, thought-provoking arguments.This is why us Jews get upset when people criticize Israel. The standards are always different for Israel. Just look at the usual tropes.
Israel is like South Africa. Except the small part where South Africa wasn't attacked by its neighbouring countries multiple times over it's 75-year existence. Nor were there any neighbours who declared war on SA and never signed a peace treaty, even 8 decades later. Nor did SA win that war whose sole aim was physical destruction of its people, only to find themselves facing all kinds of pressure to sign treaties with a state utterly unwilling to sign one. And might I add, a state that approaches the idea of negotiations as if they are the victor. Countless treaties have been signed over the past couple of centuries where the attacker/loser was punished, but apparently that doesn't apply when Israel is involved.
Israel is a case of settler colonialism. Yeah, so are so many other countries in the world. How come we never hear about Argentina or Mexico or even Russia being guilty of that? Why is Israel singled out for carving their country out by force when all freaking countries were created by force? Western Sahara has been occupied by Morocco for decades as well, but look up the disparity in UN resolutions dealing with Israel and the ones dealing with Morocco. Go ahead, look it up. Are there protests in Times Square against Morocco? Are there any campaigns to boycot the country and its products? I'm certainly not aware of anything.
It's morally unacceptable to have Israel defined as a Jewish state. Except. of course, that most countries are nationial states. Certainly in Europe, to which Israel belongs culturally, if not geographically. Other than Switzerland and microstates, countries in Europe are national states. Proudly and openly so, might I add. The first sentence of the Croatian constitution says "The Republic of Croatia is established as the nation state of the Croatian people." No one's bothered that Denmark is the state of Danish people or that Hungary is the state of Hungarian people.
Jews are not "a people" but a religion. Ah yes. Apparently the Jews have not been an identifiable, separate ethnic group for milennia, while Danish and Hungarian people have existed forever. Also, identity is not a subjective, personal thing, but rather an objective category best left to decide by the outsiders.
The return to 1967 borders would fix everything. Never mind that those borders carry no legal meaning and are simply a result of ceasefire lines, the Palestinians don't actually want a two-state solution. The issue isn't that Hamas wants to see Israel destroyed, it's that most Palestinians want Israel destroyed. Here's a poll from 2020.
And again, I remind you, this is the position of a side that was defeated in a war they started. 3/5ths of them apparently believe that starting point of the negotiations is to ask for everything, and then increase demands from there.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
I think a lot of people feel the same way. This comedian has a skit about taking a side.
View: https://youtu.be/a0Pw_TxBe7w?si=BlXKuoE7ryxBs-rM
Red
Well-Known Member
So far, I’ve only found one major news outlet claiming direct involvement, the WSJ saying attack was approved in Beirut the Monday before the attack. I can’t find a way to read their report…actually, I see you can listen to a portion of the article…
WSJ News Exclusive | Iran Helped Plot Attack on Israel Over Several Weeks
The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps gave the final go-ahead last Monday in Beirut.
www.wsj.com
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
It's just so odd how the same people that are extremely pro-war in Ukraine then Pro Palestine don't understand their sheer hypocrisy. I want no involvement whatsoever and I'm the bad guy while others are openly supporting Palestine for doing similar things to what Russia is doing. The ease of manipulation is scary ****. "We hate Putin the evil dictator but we loooooooove Hamas the terrorists organization". It...makes...no....sense...
Zelenskys words... Not mines
Zelenskiy made his first visit to NATO headquarters since Russia's invasion last year, at a time when turbulence in the U.S. Congress threatens to disrupt aid for Kyiv and the world's attention is drawn to another crisis unfolding in Israel.
He made explicit comparisons between Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, and said Western military aid was crucial to put Moscow on the backfoot in the war.
"Terrorists like Putin or like Hamas seek to hold free and democratic nations as hostages and they want power," he said.
"(Russia) still has enough resources to incite conflicts and turn them into full-scale tragedies and this is happening in Sahel. And it can happen even more painfully in Israel and in the Middle East."
Zelenskys words... Not mines
Zelenskiy made his first visit to NATO headquarters since Russia's invasion last year, at a time when turbulence in the U.S. Congress threatens to disrupt aid for Kyiv and the world's attention is drawn to another crisis unfolding in Israel.
He made explicit comparisons between Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas, and said Western military aid was crucial to put Moscow on the backfoot in the war.
"Terrorists like Putin or like Hamas seek to hold free and democratic nations as hostages and they want power," he said.
"(Russia) still has enough resources to incite conflicts and turn them into full-scale tragedies and this is happening in Sahel. And it can happen even more painfully in Israel and in the Middle East."
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Back on Jazzfanz for the first time in a minute, wanted to read some and let some thoughts flow too. No real order to them.
I'm not very interested in a 'who started it' discussion at this point, it goes back to at least WWI, and certainly nobody alive today was there making decisions, all need to focus on how to move forward.
The Israeli government and Hamas are imperfect representatives of their people, but they are representatives of them. Trump was our president and now Biden is, I expect other nations to treat their actions as our actions unless we are actively trying to remove them through revolutionary action.
For wars to end all parties have to want the war to end (or a big neutral party can stamp it out, but none of those exist or are interested). Hamas isn't even close to wanting the war to end, and Israel isn't either after recent events (they weren't that close prior either, but closer).
I've been happy with US efforts to keep the war from expanding. I'm happy Fatah and the West Bank doesn't seem to jumping all in on the situation. It gives me some hope on they and the Israelis continuing to be on speaking terms.
I find it unlikely Israel backs down from the current bombardments/siege into invasion plan until a serious percentage of hostages are accounted for. I am concerned Hamas will not turn them over under any circumstance, their goal seems to be becoming martyrs (well, not personally, leadership is abroad, but turning the Gazan people into martyrs).
I hope that boots on the ground leadership in Gaza prevails and does what is best for their people and negotiates those hostage returns, and that Israel responds with as much empathy as they can muster including ending the active siege, letting in any aid and ceasing bombardment.
Can't really see much past that at this point, but I hope that's what happens next.
I'm not very interested in a 'who started it' discussion at this point, it goes back to at least WWI, and certainly nobody alive today was there making decisions, all need to focus on how to move forward.
The Israeli government and Hamas are imperfect representatives of their people, but they are representatives of them. Trump was our president and now Biden is, I expect other nations to treat their actions as our actions unless we are actively trying to remove them through revolutionary action.
For wars to end all parties have to want the war to end (or a big neutral party can stamp it out, but none of those exist or are interested). Hamas isn't even close to wanting the war to end, and Israel isn't either after recent events (they weren't that close prior either, but closer).
I've been happy with US efforts to keep the war from expanding. I'm happy Fatah and the West Bank doesn't seem to jumping all in on the situation. It gives me some hope on they and the Israelis continuing to be on speaking terms.
I find it unlikely Israel backs down from the current bombardments/siege into invasion plan until a serious percentage of hostages are accounted for. I am concerned Hamas will not turn them over under any circumstance, their goal seems to be becoming martyrs (well, not personally, leadership is abroad, but turning the Gazan people into martyrs).
I hope that boots on the ground leadership in Gaza prevails and does what is best for their people and negotiates those hostage returns, and that Israel responds with as much empathy as they can muster including ending the active siege, letting in any aid and ceasing bombardment.
Can't really see much past that at this point, but I hope that's what happens next.
Red
Well-Known Member
White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.
Bucknutz
Well-Known Member
I understand that. My post was a response saying “media manufactured content at its finest”. It shows that Biden stated he saw/confirmed children be-headed.White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.www.aljazeera.com
The tweet had a community note attached showing the Israeli news saying that the White House could not confirm Biden’s statement.
It’s was ironic to me, that misinformation, coming from the president was debunked by Israeli media.
I agree, but don't understand the relevance to what I said.
Are you saying the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people is justified? If not, what is your point in listing differences from South Africa?
Overall, would you say these punishments have been productive or counter-productive? If you think they are productive, what punishments do you think would be appropriate for the Palestinian people?
Yeah, ok. Conservatives choice for president literally praised Hezbollah. You’re in a cult.
White House Condemns ‘Unhinged’ Trump for Praising ‘Very Smart’ Hezbollah
“It’s completely lost on us why any American would ever praise an Iran-backed terrorist organization as ‘smart,’” a Biden spokesman said on Thursday.
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LogGrad98
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Legit one of the dumbest things Biden has done. Just say nothing. Don't propagate unverified information. Just stupid.White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
Lol it's extremely clear what he meant. He never once praised them. You just intentionally take things out of context for faux outrage then call others cultist for your blatant propagated misunderstanding. It's crazy how Democrats can be so easily manipulated to take something so obvious out of context. This is like the "very good people on both sides" hoax. How easy it is to cut apart a sentence and manipulate some knowing they really don't care about the truth just spreading hateful messages calling others cultist. They are the real Trumps.Yeah, ok. Conservatives choice for president literally praised Hezbollah. You’re in a cult.
White House Condemns ‘Unhinged’ Trump for Praising ‘Very Smart’ Hezbollah
“It’s completely lost on us why any American would ever praise an Iran-backed terrorist organization as ‘smart,’” a Biden spokesman said on Thursday.www.thedailybeast.com
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
“And then two nights ago, I read all of Biden security people — can you imagine? National defense people and they said, ‘Gee, I hope Hezbollah doesn’t attack from the north because that’s the most vulnerable spot.’ I said, 'Wait a minute. You know, Hezbollah is very smart. They’re all very smart.'”
In a statement Thursday, the Trump campaign said, “President Trump was clearly pointing out how incompetent Biden and his administration were by telegraphing to the terrorists an area that is susceptible to an attack. Smart does not equal good. It just proves Biden is stupid.”
“They might not have been doing it, but if you listen to this jerk, you would attack from the north, because he said that’s our weak spot,” the former president went on. “Whoever heard of officials saying on television that they hope the enemy doesn’t attack in a certain area?”
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Mongoose
Well-Known Member
Anybody remember the babies in incubators being killed propaganda about Kuwaiti soldiers? George Bush used this false testimony and repeated it over and over to justify and get support for the gulf war. The folks in Washington are war mongers and propogandists and Americans need to slow the hell down when they make decisions about this stuff - especially when all the content they hear is from the mainstream media and paid corrupt politicians. Why anyone thinks they are getting accurate information about any of these wars and US involvement is beyond me.
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fishonjazz
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Scarborough rips Trump for praising Hezbollah: ‘Out of his mind’
MSNBC host Joe Scarborough tore into former President Trump over his comments Wednesday praising the terrorist organization Hezbollah. “Out of his mind, I mean, praising Hezbollah, just like he praised [Russia President] Vladimir Putin, said he was brilliant … after the invasion of Ukraine,”...
“Out of his mind, I mean, praising Hezbollah, just like he praised [Russia President] Vladimir Putin, said he was brilliant … after the invasion of Ukraine,” Scarborough said on his program Thursday morning. “All the praise that he’s had for President Xi [Jinping] and China always talking about what a brilliant man he is. Same thing, of course, with the tyrannical leader of North Korea.”
“You know, out of his mind,” he added.
Trump, during a stump speech Wednesday, said Hezbollah, which is based in Lebanon, is “very smart, they’re all very smart.”
Trump loves to talk about how smart and great Putin, Xi, kim jon un and hezbollah are and how bad and dumb Biden is. He bashes our intelligence community. Bashes our military. Bashes our democratic elections. What a patriot!
fishonjazz
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agreed. Trump loves to talk about how smart and great Putin, Xi, kim jon un and hezbollah are and how bad and dumb Biden is. He bashes our intelligence community. Bashes our military. Bashes our democratic elections. What a patriot!