What's new

Israel-Hamas War

And in order not to be completely one-sided, let's touch more briefly on a similar issue on the other side. A viable Palestinian state cannot have 20 different piecemeal territories in the West Bank. It would have to be contiguous and the issue of settlers would have to be resolved. This is not nearly the insurmountable obstacle that it's made out to be. Yes, there are 500 thousand settlers in the West Bank, but more than half of that number is in 4 larger cities located immediately outside of Jerusalem. When you add some of the smaller settlements that are also next to the 1967 armistice line, not even 100 thousand live in various dispersed settlements all over the West Bank and it's these settlements that have been most detrimental to Palestinians and that have caused the PA to have authority over areas that aren't connected.

Land swap has been discussed and accepted in theory every since actual direct negotiations between Israel and Palestinians started 30 years ago. At Camp David in 2000, Arafat agreed that Israel would keep some settlements along the border and Palestine would receive a similar amount of land and perhaps even people in return. There are clusters of Muslim Arab villages in Israel that are right on the 1967 line, both south and north of Tulkarm that could be exchanged for the settlements around Jerusalem. Israel would also have no problem absorbing 100 thousand people who would have to move from West Bank. This whole process could actually be agreed upon fairly easily.

The problem is that no Israeli politician could survive this, politically but probably also literally. Rabin was assassinated by ultra-nationalists for much smaller concessions. We are talking about optics again. When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, they demolished settlements and the army removed the unwilling settlers by force. This was 2005, though, and the situation was different. There were only about 8 thousand settlers in Gaza, the electorate was generally more moderate, and there was broad consensus in Israel that this should be done. In 2024, and especially after Oct 7th, the sight of soldiers removing Jews from their homes will not go over well with the public. Not just the more hardline segment, but with any segment of Israeli society.

And again, this should be done and probably needs to be done in order to have a lasting settlement, but who's going to do it? Unlike the Palestinians, Israel cannot be compelled by force to do anything, so that's basically it.
 
All these plans and ideas are just Legoland-level pretend. There will not be another occupation by a 3rd party. There's gonna be a war.

Israel has become their own terror. It has shown what they are to the world, and the US and GB have shown unwavering support for this unhinged genocide. The powers that are not united with these three now have every justification they will ever need.
 
Pardon me for saying but you sound kinda unhinged with all this facism stuff. Seriously.
The fact is people seldom know what is happening, while it is happening. And, at the moment, that very much seems to be happening in the United States. Hindsight, or so it’s said, is always 20/20. I’m just not in need of hindsight in this instance. Neither is Robert Reich. Neither is Ruth Ben-Ghiat, a brilliant scholar of fascism and its history. I don’t believe they are the least bit unhinged, for the effort they make in providing simple historical perspective. If warning people of what is happening, of which they themselves may be blind, is being unhinged, then I’m fine with that.

You call me unhinged, yet the growth of a fascist movemet, is apparent to observers far more knowledgeable than I am. Yet, I can still see it happening. At least I had no blinders at all where right wing populism of a fascist flavor was concerned. For that, I thank an education, one that did not prove otherwise all that relevant at times. But I sure recognized the appearance of a fascist-inclined authoritarian. And it is an absolute earth shattering development within the body politic of the United States. And we’re far from over it, far from an understanding of exactly how this will, or will not, transform this country.

At any rate, “all this fascism stuff” really couldn’t be more relevant to our present moment. And that is not my fault, and I am clearly not unhinged in recognizing that very simple, and quite visible, fact. Extreme right wing movements are appearing in several nations, MAGA is ours….

That said, I’ve believed all along that liberals and conservatives respond to the world in starkly different ways, and I must acknowledge that this fact may be part of the reason the two “world views”, for that is what they amount to, find it near impossible to understand where the other side is coming from. On top of which, in any democracy, a very healthy % of the electorate actually prefer authoritarianism, and that too plays into not being alarmed in the least by a Trump. So, regardless of where you stand, I’m certainly fine with you not understanding where the hell I’m even coming from. It’s almost a baseline condition in our body politic at the moment, for each side to see the other side as fundamentally mistaken/dangerous, as we prepare for what should be a most tumultuous 2024.

Nothing helps more in recognizing what’s happening, while it’s happening, than a good understanding of history. And the clearest understanding is reached of the present moment, IMHO, when one can achieve that. If we could all come back in a hundred years we could all learn what history has to say about the present moment. But we don’t have to depend on historical hindsight to at least recognize what historical forces are presently at work, if we work at reaching that understanding.

I do respect your opinion, and if fascism bears no relevance to you, in our present moment, then I can at least understand why you are sick of hearing it from me…..
 
Last edited:
Who will occupy Gaza for a sufficient amount of time for all these changes to happen, because that's what would be needed: an occupation.
The boots on the ground in Gaza would be Israeli.

There will still be Islamic Jihad, there would likely be groups that would split off from Hamas, or you'd simply have new, more radical groups emerge on their own.
Negative influences need to be removed from the economically disadvantaged side.

What about the fact that so many of the problems in Gaza stem from the 80-year existence of massive refugee camps. 2/3 of Gaza's population are registered refugees
So many Gazans are registered as refugees only because the definition of refugee was changed for Gaza. A kid born there to parents who were also born there is considered a refugee only in Gaza. Nowhere else on planet Earth are people classified in that manner. More to the point, it doesn’t matter. The people are there now and things have to be dealt with.

Gaza Strip has one of the highest population densities in the world. It doesn't matter what you do or how much you invest, it just can't support 2.5 million people. You can't just build housing for the million and a half with refugee status. This is a poor, arid area without a lot of economic potential.
It has a lower population density than Mexico City and half the population density of Singapore. Gaza receives more rainfall than where I live in San Diego and we have more people. There is also nothing keeping Palestinians in Gaza. They can leave to any country willing to take them, which admittedly aren’t many due to Palestinians having a history of attacking their host countries.

they must be done for a comprehensive settlement, but who's going to undertake such a thankless job?
The boots on the ground in Gaza would be Israeli with major funding from the United States. Israel will be called an apartheid state but they are called that already. It is a thankless job but kicking the can down the road isn’t solving the problem.
 
Last edited:
A viable Palestinian state cannot have 20 different piecemeal territories in the West Bank. It would have to be contiguous and the issue of settlers would have to be resolved.
Israel manages just fine with different piecemeal territories in the West Bank. I roundly reject the idea that Arabs cannot manage a thing Israel has proved possible.

Land swap has been discussed and accepted in theory every since actual direct negotiations between Israel and Palestinians started 30 years ago.
The pull-out from Gaza two decades ago was exactly the solution you just proposed and it made life worse for everyone involved. The negotiators 30 years ago did not have the benefit of hindsight that we now have.

We are talking about optics again.
Jew-haters are going to see things through the most hateful lenses regardless of what is done. The job is hard enough withing trying to accomplish the impossible task of making everyone like Israel. What needs to be done is what needs to be done. Let the haters hate.

this should be done and probably needs to be done in order to have a lasting settlement,
I'm happy to find agreement.
 
We could go on like that, and it proves nothing. You want to insist that because a Jewish person somewhere is attacked that it's every Jewish person vs the world?

You're caught in a victim cycle, and it is causing you to dehumanize innocent human beings. You are justifying the collective punishment of human shields. It is unethical in the extreme.
 
Back
Top