It has begun

[The Shocker]

well that's the million dollar question, right? but my point is, after next summer we're just going to be another team with young guys' extensions kicking in, and a draft pick and an MLE each year to better ourselves. the time to make an all-in, franchise defining move is in the next 12-14 months.

don't underestimate the importance of that TPE. some of the provisions of the new CBA were scaled in, meaning teams' numbers are going to get increasingly tight and a lot of teams would probably give back some real value in exchange for us taking some salary off their hands.... like we did by having OKC absorb harp's contract, or when we were on the receiving end in 2003-04 and got that nice stockpile of draft picks (which we turned into DW, which we turned into this young core).

No doubt the TPE has some value. But it isn't likely that we're getting a strong player back for the TPE. Like you said, we're probably taking salary off of someone's hands and if that's what we're doing, I doubt that player's very good to begin with.

What are the CBA's restrictions on TPE's in trades?

 

[theNBAnerd]

No doubt the TPE has some value. But it isn't likely that we're getting a strong player back for the TPE. Like you said, we're probably taking salary off of someone's hands and if that's what we're doing, I doubt that player's very good to begin with.

What are the CBA's restrictions on TPE's in trades?

you're right and wrong about what you get with a TPE. best case scenario is you get a player who is decent, but who a team needs to clear to avoid tax or position themselves for a free agent run (there's a decent FA class next year, starting with CP3). worst case is someone compensates you for taking their junk... but even in that scenario you get an asset for being their dumping ground.

the way it workds CBA-wise is that the CBA essentially treats it like a non-simultaneous trade. a simultaneous trade allows you more flexibility salary-wise (used to be 125% plus 100K, now it's 150% plus 100K except for tax-payers), versus a non-simultaneous trade (was 100% plus 100K, haven't found anything real clear on whether that changed with this CBA or not).

in other words, the way they look at it is that the jazz traded memo's 10.5M for somebody, we just don't know who yet, and that somebody can make up to 10.6M.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

FWIW, I don't think the Jazz expected to make the playoffs this year. Houston pretty much tanked at the end of the year too, or we would have had a mid first-round pick.

 

[theNBAnerd]

FWIW, I don't think the Jazz expected to make the playoffs this year. Houston pretty much tanked at the end of the year too, or we would have had a mid first-round pick.

i've had this argument with my brother... i don't think houston "tanked" and i don't think that's why the jazz got in. houston is an around-.500 team which means they're going to have good stretches when the sked is favorable, bad stretches when the sked is bad, and .500ish stretches when the sked is .500ish. same with the the jazz, same with denver, same with phoenix.

houston simply hit a stretch where they were facing good teams who were hungry, right while the jazz were hitting a home-heavy stretch of mostly winnable games. did houston falter more than i expected them to? sure, that final 2-7 stretch was pretty awful even through the lens of "they're an around-.500 team & they're gonna have bad stretches." but even if houston had gone 4-5 in that final stretch -- certainly reasonable for a .500 team with that rough schedule -- the jazz still would have gotten in.

my point is simply that i don't think history should say the jazz backed into these playoffs. they were in a position where they had to win and they won five straight. yes, houston faltered, but even if houston's skid hadn't been quite as bad, the jazz put themselves in by playing good ball at the end.

 

[freakazoid]

i understand the case for patience, i really do. but right now the jazz are in an asset position that they just won't have in a couple of years. i don't want them to make a deal just for the sake of making a deal, but it feels a lot like they're one bold move away from a pretty decent team.

Sounds like you're starting to come around.

the time to make an all-in, franchise defining move is in the next 12-14 months.

I have serious doubts about the willingness of our FO to take any risks with this team. I hope they prove me wrong, but they've already passed up one opportunity to swing for the fences, IMO.

i've had this argument with my brother... i don't think houston "tanked" and i don't think that's why the jazz got in. my point is simply that i don't think history should say the jazz backed into these playoffs. they were in a position where they had to win and they won five straight. yes, houston faltered, but even if houston's skid hadn't been quite as bad, the jazz put themselves in by playing good ball at the end.

You should listen to your brother more often....

 

[The Shocker]

you're right and wrong about what you get with a TPE. best case scenario is you get a player who is decent, but who a team needs to clear to avoid tax or position themselves for a free agent run (there's a decent FA class next year, starting with CP3). worst case is someone compensates you for taking their junk... but even in that scenario you get an asset for being their dumping ground.

the way it workds CBA-wise is that the CBA essentially treats it like a non-simultaneous trade. a simultaneous trade allows you more flexibility salary-wise (used to be 125% plus 100K, now it's 150% plus 100K except for tax-payers), versus a non-simultaneous trade (was 100% plus 100K, haven't found anything real clear on whether that changed with this CBA or not).

in other words, the way they look at it is that the jazz traded memo's 10.5M for somebody, we just don't know who yet, and that somebody can make up to 10.6M.

My point was that if a team is willing to trade someone making up to 10.6M for Memo's TPE, they're probably not worth much. To put it another way, who are three players you could see fit into a trade like this, for the TPE, because some team is simply looking to dump salary, but yet truly help us?

 

[Lion's Roar]

My point was that if a team is willing to trade someone making up to 10.6M for Memo's TPE, they're probably not worth much. To put it another way, who are three players you could see fit into a trade like this, for the TPE, because some team is simply looking to dump salary, but yet truly help us?

Shawn Marion (but I would balk at the 3rd year of his contract AND it would pretty much garantee Deron is playing in Dallas next summer)
Marvin Williams on the very worried Oh-no-why-did-I-signed-JJ-for-$120M Hawks
Anthony Morrow
Corey Maggette
John Salmons

BTW this is a sort of a rethoric answer. I wouldn't do the trade straight up for any of those guys other than Marvin Williams. But in combination with another thread the TPE can be used effectivelly. Also you can sign two or three players with it just as long as you present it to the league as 3 different trades.

 

[theNBAnerd]

My point was that if a team is willing to trade someone making up to 10.6M for Memo's TPE, they're probably not worth much. To put it another way, who are three players you could see fit into a trade like this, for the TPE, because some team is simply looking to dump salary, but yet truly help us?

well then you didn't hear what i said about how to use the TPE as an asset.

a team with a TPE has the same type of leverage that an under-the-cap team has in trades. they can use that like cap space to basically get paid for helping a team trim salary. trades are made all the time where a team gets an asset in exchange for being a resting place for bad contracts.

1) we gave OKC eric maynor in exchange for them eating matt harpring's salary, and we gave them cash to offset what little of matt's salary they'd actually have to pay for the remaining chunk of the season and with insurance paying probably 80%. so taking on matt cost them nothing, but they still got an asset because they were doing us a favor.

2) in 2003, we absorbed glen rice's salary and got the following in exchange: a first-round pick we would later use as part of the package to move up and get dwill, and two second round picks that became dee brown and robert whaley (aka bobby williams).

3) in 2004, we took on tom gugliotta's fat contract and got a mid-first rounder, a future first from NYC that became gordon hayward, a second rounder we used to flip d-steve to philly for giricek, and cash. all we had to give up in that trade were handlogten and clark, two injured guys who never played another NBA game.

those are just a few jazz-related examples. there are also several examples where a team used the flexibility of being able to absorb salary to buy into an upcoming draft (seattle #5 in 2007, washington #17 in 2010, indy #17 in 2008, okc #18 in 2010, portland #24 in 2007, etc.)

 

[Lion's Roar]

Don't forget Al Jefferson for Boozer's TPE and a 1st round pick.

 

[theNBAnerd]

Don't forget Al Jefferson for Boozer's TPE and a 1st round pick.

well right except that wasn't a team getting paid to let another team use its cap room / TPE. that was we had acquired a TPE for boozer and we used it to get a guy by throwing in a mid first rounder.

 

[Lion's Roar]

Yeah...but it was even better cause it wasn't a salary dump and the player actuallly could play.

 

[theNBAnerd]

yeah, but i was giving examples of teams using cap space/TPE to absorb salary and get an asset.

the al thing is another example of how to use a TPE, but i was talking about something specific.