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Its Time to Tank

I know that GMs and execs are way smarter and informed than me (besides Billy King), but a Collins trade seems so perfect. A seemingly misused player on a one-dimensional team (that is in cap hell), that is only 25, locked up for a couple years (with some cap jumps coming in 23-24 and beyond), who is also a solid defending stretch-4.

****, I have no clue how much they value him at this point, but if we could get him for 2 of Clarkson, Olynyk, and Beasley (and maybe some seconds), I would do it in a heartbeat.
I think the idea of John Collins is better than the player John Collins... but I am definitely curious. I think Beasley/Vando or Beasley/KO is what I would center the offer on. I don't think there is a lot of better offers if you consider Atlanta's goals in clearing some cap room and staying competitive.
 
I think the idea of John Collins is better than the player John Collins... but I am definitely curious. I think Beasley/Vando or Beasley/KO is what I would center the offer on. I don't think there is a lot of better offers if you consider Atlanta's goals in clearing some cap room and staying competitive.
That's definitely fair with the idea of JC being better than the product, and why the option would be open. I do remember saying the same thing about Lauri to a friend when we got him (a 7' wing who can shoot 3's reliably), so I think my optimism comes from not trusting a player's production when they are slotted next to Trae.

I agree that I don't think they'd get many offers. I was thinking Clarkson might be valuable to them since he will definitely be opting out of a player option for next season, and could provide some shooting and flexibility. I have always been higher on Vando than most here, but I'd consider moving him for JC
 
Which premium pick would you be willing to give up for Kuzma with THT if he agreed to sign an extension here at around 20-25M per year?
 
I think the idea of John Collins is better than the player John Collins... but I am definitely curious. I think Beasley/Vando or Beasley/KO is what I would center the offer on. I don't think there is a lot of better offers if you consider Atlanta's goals in clearing some cap room and staying competitive.
i don't know if collins is a winning player, but i do know he'd be fun to have on the jazz.
 
Wow, people are practically giddy with the delicious prospect of throwing it all away and having three or four consecutive 20 win seasons.

Huh? We are already almost at 20 wins and its not even close to the all star break lol


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Screw the tank.
There is no formula.
There is just a promise of "maybe".
More specifically, "maybe in the future we can draft the right guys and build a winning team around them".

Top 10 guys are often not who we think they are coming from the draft. Evidenced by the fact that most of the time we draft others before them. And since it seems like a fairly accepted fact that you must have a top 10 guy to truely compete, well... how to exactly draft him?

Lets look at best players in the league right now (in no particular order but hopefully covering all that appear on anyones top 10):
Luka - 3rd (important notice, despite being top 3 the two guys drafted before him are total scrubs, and Hawks were willing to downgrade away from Luka)
Tatum - 3rd (drafed behind 2 guys who havent made an impact yet, and maybe never will due to health reasons)
Giannis - 15th
Steph - 7th
Jokic - 41st
Durant - 2nd (and the guy drafted ahead of him was the more "surefire" guy in Greg Oden... you see KD needed a lot of work "in the weight room" before he could become legit in the NBA)
AD - 1st and rightfully so.. but even though he is back to top 10 now, he hasn't been consistently up there. Furthermore, the team that drafted him has 0 championships and another team that paid the ransom reaped the benefits.
Embiid - 3rd (as a talent he was the best but health concerns dropped him to 3rd)
Booker - 13th
DM - 13th
Ja - 2nd
Zion - 1st
SGA - 11th

Shouldnt there be more #1s in that list than Zion and AD? Also count how many chips guys drafted top 3 won for the teams that drafted them? Hint: 0.
Get this: there are no top 3 picks from past 15 years who won a chip for the team that drafted them as their best player. Kyrie won one with Lebron, but playing the second fiddle. Tatum might break the trend. Might.

Oh and btw, that is 15+ years of drafts there. So 38 total top 3 picks that are not on that list which still has 5 guys picked outside of top 10 (40%). To be fair, some of those 38 top 3 picks that are not on that list were up there for a moment before disappearing... but vast majority have turned good to decent or just slipped to total irrelevance after doing next to nothing.

Lets look at 2015 just because these guys are in their absolute prime right now... yet some of them are out of jobs. Booker was #13, but these guys where valued better than him. Which of those has ever even been mentioned as a top player? No one. Potential top 10? KAT only. But we now know he isnt.

11Karl-Anthony Towns*~C
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Dominican Republic[n 2]
Minnesota TimberwolvesKentucky (Fr.)
12D'Angelo Russell+PG
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United States
Los Angeles LakersOhio State (Fr.)
13Jahlil OkaforC
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Nigeria
Philadelphia 76ersDuke (Fr.)
14Kristaps Porziņģis+PF/C
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Latvia
New York KnicksBaloncesto Sevilla (Spain)
15Mario HezonjaSG/SF
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Croatia
Orlando MagicFC Barcelona (Spain)
16Willie Cauley-SteinPF
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United States
Sacramento KingsKentucky (Jr.)
17Emmanuel MudiayPG
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DR Congo[n 3]
Denver NuggetsGuangdong Southern Tigers
18Stanley JohnsonSF
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United States
Detroit PistonsArizona (Fr.)
19Frank KaminskyPF
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United States
Charlotte HornetsWisconsin (Sr.)
110Justise WinslowSF
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United States
Miami HeatDuke (Fr.)
111Myles TurnerC
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United States
Indiana PacersTexas (Fr.)
112Trey LylesPF
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Canada
Utah JazzKentucky (Fr.)

There is an average of 2 guys per draft who at some point during their career get elevated to the elitest tier of players. Some drafts there can be as many as 6 or 7, other drafts you struggle to find a single one. And we just suck at telling who those guys are before they are drafted and sometimes even after seeing them play for a few years.

Its all smoke and mirrors. Picking 1st or 7th or 25th is not what eventually sets teams apart. Winning chips these days is much more about player development, coaching and team building (trades included). Only thing high pick gives you is a better chance for a better embryo to try and develop. But some of the even most hyped ones are just tainted, hopeless and destined to be busts regardless of where they land.

Lol at saying trae young and Ayton are scrubs.


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Has anything come out on extension talks for Kuzma? If he goes to free agency I would see him getting $20-25M/yr from someone given his skillset though I don't know what cap situations are like right now.

Given past comments about Orlando and such, I don't see him agreeing to commit to Utah long-term, even if he played college here
 
I assume you think Ayton is a legit #1 talent?
Not at all, I was never interested in getting involved in a trade for him and think he is a disappointment for a 1st overall pick.

Still a good player and quality starter, so depends on how you define "scrub".
 
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