Jazz Big Men, Too Many?

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Evans has a rare skill set that allows him to have an impact on a certain part of the playing surface. He's a P3 to maintain that while he tries to expand his skill set. You can continue over-thinking this if you want... or you can trust that Evans has always been a limited player who has, by all accounts visible to a fan such as yourself, worked hard to expand his game.

You see his poor dribble and assume he hasn't worked on it. I think you're stupid to take that assumption and run to sloppy conclusions/judgments (especially when you take sloppy judgments about other players and run away to these ridiculously celebratory conclusions).

In other words, calm the **** down, brauggh.

 

[Sexual Favors]

Evans has a rare skill set that allows him to have an impact on a certain part of the playing surface. He's a P3 to maintain that while he tries to expand his skill set. You can continue over-thinking this if you want... or you can trust that Evans has always been a limited player who has, by all accounts visible to a fan such as yourself, worked hard to expand his game.

You see his poor dribble and assume he hasn't worked on it. I think you're stupid to take that assumption and run to sloppy conclusions/judgments (especially when you take sloppy judgments about other players and run away to these ridiculously celebratory conclusions).

In other words, calm the **** down, brauggh.

I am calm, "brautgh." I also am a Evans fan. I have made many posts celebrating his talents and skills, and recognize his potential. However, there has been a publicized trajectory for his development (most noticeably last year) which was to be a PF. It is something I disagree with and can't wrap my head around.

I'm sure he has worked on his dribbling, but it has yet to manifest itself in games, which tells me hasn't worked on it enough, dribbling is a basic skill that anyone can become adequate at with enough practice. His offseason work that has been made public is his work with Malone, his p3 jumping, and his jump shot last year. I applaud the jump shot.

I just think the skills he learned last year, specificall how to be a PF, are not useful this year. I think it will be hard for him to get playing time unless some other parts of his game begin to manifest. That is sad. i like the kid.

Maybe don't be so sensitive?

Care to elaborate on my "sloppy judgments about other players " and my "ridiculously celebratory conclusions?" Those are some big accusations levied without example.

 

[JAZZGASM]

I am calm, "brautgh." I also am a Evans fan. I have made many posts celebrating his talents and skills, and recognize his potential. However, there has been a publicized trajectory for his development (most noticeably last year) which was to be a PF. It is something I disagree with and can't wrap my head around.

I'm sure he has worked on his dribbling, but it has yet to manifest itself in games, which tells me hasn't worked on it enough, dribbling is a basic skill that anyone can become adequate at with enough practice. His offseason work that has been made public is his work with Malone, his p3 jumping, and his jump shot last year. I applaud the jump shot.

I just think the skills he learned last year, specificall how to be a PF, are not useful this year. I think it will be hard for him to get playing time unless some other parts of his game begin to manifest. That is sad. i like the kid.

Maybe don't be so sensitive?

I agree with you, he has not been concentrating on the right skillset. Either that or he just cannot improve where he needs to. I do think a SF with PF skills can create matchup problems though. If he can impove his dribbling and quickness, his improved post play will still have value. I just think we may have seen close to his max potential.

 

[Sexual Favors]

I agree with you, he has not been concentrating on the right skillset. Either that or he just cannot improve where he needs to. I do think a SF with PF skills can create matchup problems though. If he can impove his dribbling and quickness, his improved post play will still have value. I just think we may have seen close to his max potential.

I agree that PF skills in an SF would be awesome, but wish the SF skills came first. As a second rounder, he came to the league with a lot of work needing to be done. Like you, I just hope he didn't learn the wrong skills first, and then plateau as this incomplete player whose only value was as a specialist for unique situations. I'm hoping this new staff will set new goals for him and that he can attain them.

 

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I am calm, "brautgh." I also am a Evans fan. I have made many posts celebrating his talents and skills, and recognize his potential. However, there has been a publicized trajectory for his development (most noticeably last year) which was to be a PF. It is something I disagree with and can't wrap my head around.

I'm sure he has worked on his dribbling, but it has yet to manifest itself in games, which tells me hasn't worked on it enough, dribbling is a basic skill that anyone can become adequate at with enough practice. His offseason work that has been made public is his work with Malone, his p3 jumping, and his jump shot last year. I applaud the jump shot.

I just think the skills he learned last year, specificall how to be a PF, are not useful this year. I think it will be hard for him to get playing time unless some other parts of his game begin to manifest. That is sad. i like the kid.

Maybe don't be so sensitive?

Care to elaborate on my "sloppy judgments about other players " and my "ridiculously celebratory conclusions?" Those are some big accusations levied without example.

I agree that PF skills in an SF would be awesome, but wish the SF skills came first. As a second rounder, he came to the league with a lot of work needing to be done. Like you, I just hope he didn't learn the wrong skills first, and then plateau as this incomplete player whose only value was as a specialist for unique situations. I'm hoping this new staff will set new goals for him and that he can attain them.

This year, Greg Popovich said that Kawhi was finally understanding what it meant to play on the perimeter (he played inside at SDSU). I'll repeat for emphasis: someone with the natural speed and size of a prototypical SF took 3 years to adjust to the game out there. This, despite the fact that he could shoot the three, defend, and was an adequate ball handler.

Evans played a lot of center in college. Center. When you add this game experience to the fact that he severely lacked basic perimeter skills, who can blame anybody for trying to get him some ACTUAL minutes on the floor by making him a backup 4? Seriously, who? He is simply more limited than you seem to be able to admit..............

Speaking of which........ Kanter is obviously gonna rock teh world, right? All the evidence suggests this.

 

[Sexual Favors]

This year, Greg Popovich said that Kawhi was finally understanding what it meant to play on the perimeter (he played inside at SDSU). I'll repeat for emphasis: someone with the natural speed and size of a prototypical SF took 3 years to adjust to the game out there. This, despite the fact that he could shoot the three, defend, and was an adequate ball handler.

Evans played a lot of center in college. Center. When you add this game experience to the fact that he severely lacked basic perimeter skills, who can blame anybody for trying to get him some ACTUAL minutes on the floor by making him a backup 4? Seriously, who? He is simply more limited than you seem to be able to admit..............

Speaking of which........ Kanter is obviously gonna rock teh world, right? All the evidence suggests this.

I understand the argument for the PF positions getting him minutes, but it should've only been seen as a short term solution. Maybe it has been, but as a fan, the emphasis that has been publicized is for him to continue as a PF. I disagree. Also, you are acting like Evans had actual big man skills when he came in the league, not wholly accurate. Evans was a ball of clay and has been molded into more of a PF. Lots of colleges play people out of position because it is their only option.

Kanter's going to rock the world? One day. Not yet, though. A lot of innate ability, great body, and intelligence, but very, very inexperienced. I am well aware of his current limitations, I just don't blame him for not being great yet. He was a project of epic proportions on an experience level, and we haven't exactly given him the experience until last year. That's our fault. Can't judge him for that. He's a hard worker and a good dude, so no, I won't hate him or blame him for everything like some here do.

 

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I understand the argument for the PF positions getting him minutes, but it should've only been seen as a short term solution. Maybe it has been, but as a fan, the emphasis that has been publicized is for him to continue as a PF. I disagree. Also, you are acting like Evans had actual big man skills when he came in the league, not wholly accurate. Evans was a ball of clay and has been molded into more of a PF. Lots of colleges play people out of position because it is their only option.

If you put much stock into what is broadcast to the fans, then whatever. The sports media is among the most mind-numbing sectors of a mind-numbing industry.

I'm not acting like anything. I said his experience was as a big... which is unimpeachably true. I NEVER said he had "actual big man skills." I said his skills resembled more what you'd want to see from a big.... which is unimpeachably true.

I don't pretend to know what goes on beyond the media, but the evidence suggests that he's been working on his all-round game. You disagree?

Kanter's going to rock the world? One day. Not yet, though. A lot of innate ability, great body, and intelligence, but very, very inexperienced. I am well aware of his current limitations, I just don't blame him for not being great yet. He was a project of epic proportions on an experience level, and we haven't exactly given him the experience until last year. That's our fault. Can't judge him for that. He's a hard worker and a good dude, so no, I won't hate him or blame him for everything like some here do.

You have an annoying way of mixing a FANBOY PERSPECTIVE with SOME WORDS THAT MAKE YOU SOUND FAIR AND BALANCED. You give him all kinds of credit for having a good body -- despite the fact that durability has been a problem. You give him all kinds of credit for intelligence -- despite the fact that he still appears, as he did from day 1, to struggle mightily making the right read. Never before has a poor-man's Al Jefferson been praised with so little hesitation.

I think he might be good one day... But you'll probably miss the transition because you'll convince yourself that you're seeing what you've been expecting all along... while something else is happening. If this happens, I won't be shocked to see you stroll through here looking for accolades.

 

[Sexual Favors]

1. I put stock into what the GM publicizes in the media. Huge difference.

2. I've already conceded that he is working on his all around game. Certain skills that are unique to bigs are being given a greater emphasis, though. How many times do I need to say this to you?

3. You have an annoying way of attacking, when we are simply discussing. Yes! I am a fan of our players, and yes I also strive to be fair and objective. I have my favorites, but I support everyone. Most fans do.

4. This is not that serious. Lighten up.

Go Jazz!!!!

 

[Chargers Jazz Angels]

it's tough to say because there are different types of bigs

there are centers - Gobert is one.
there are 5's that can play some 4 - jazz seem to think favors is this
there are 4's that can play some 5 - kanter seems to be this
power forwards - booker seems to fit this mold
stretch 4's - Novak
there are forwards - players who can play some 3. I think Evans probably fits here
tweeners that don't seem to be a 3 or a 4. like Derek Williams
there are the 3 that can play the 4 like lebron, Carmelo Anthony and Jabari Parker

so techically you could have 7. it depends how you make up you teems. I like bench players that can play multiple positions.

 

[Fabtrey]

take novak off that list. i think we have 1 too many. gotta make a tough decision next year. i want gobert to emerge.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Evans has already exceeded expectations by leaps and bounds. Look at the players drafted in the range above and below him. I don't think any are still on an NBA roster. You have to jump all the way to 39 and 40 (Fields and Stephenson) to find impact 2nd rounders from the 2010 draft. Most 2nd's don't even make a roster, yet alone last 5 years in the league. Love his great attitude and the fact he's been willing to do Jr. JAzz every season. But he's probably not going to be a good fit going forward. However, Snyder worked wonders with DMC in Atlanta, taking him from a high-energy role player to a decent starter. Maybe he can do the same with Evans.

 

[GVC]

I see evidence that he's worked on his shooting.

Where is the evidence with his dribbling? Do you ever see him dribble? Like ever?

Spending time with a hall of famer is always good? Loaded statement that disregards why the team never had Hayward spend time with Malone. They see Hayward as an SG/SF, and they were trying to make Evans into a PF because of the deficiencies in his basketball skills.

If Evans objective is becoming a basketball player and not a "track star" then why is there such an emphasis on P3 for him? I haven't seen him get better laterally or more fluid so he'd be able to gaurd wings. I've only seen this work show up in his jumping, which is something he has never needed help with.

Point is, he is a novelty/specialist (dunker with a jumper). Hopefully Quin and staff will stop the madness and give him attainable goals. It iw obvious he will never be big enough to gaurd PF's, or to post up. He should be learning how to be a basketball player as you say--but at the one and only position he has ever had a shot at. Small Forward.

The two things Evans needs most to be able to play the 3 are a jump shot and lateral quickness. Judging from his progress, he's clearly worked on the former, and based on his presence at P3, he's also undoubtedly worked on the latter, as it's the perfect place to improve lateral quickness. Evans is going to be 27 when the season starts; I have no idea why anyone thinks he's suddenly going to have the foot speed to keep up with NBA wings. No amount of work is going to get him there. He's a 13th-15th man (a poor 4th big at best).

Why would Evans need to work on his handle? Even if his jumper became passable for a wing, and he proved he could defend NBA 3s, he'd never be asked to put the ball on the floor. He'd be parked in the corner and working the baseline exclusively.

 

[ema]

The minute distribution with 6 bigs is pretty hard though.

Derrick Favors got 30.2 mpg last year and shouldn't get any less this year. Let's say 30 mins flat.

Enes Kanter got 26.7 and he should get around that. I'd want him to get 28 mins.

Rudy Gobert played only 9.6 mpg last year and desperately needs playing time. I would want to give him minimum 18 minutes but let's say 16 mins for now.

Trevor Booker has played 16.4, 25.2, 18,5 and 21.6 mpg in his 4 seasons respectively. He will want around 20 mins this year as well. But given his productivity within the pt he had, I doubt he would get anything close to 20 mins. I would give him 13 mins or so at best, if he deserves more maybe he can get a few more minutes at SF, of course only if he can.

Steve Novak is still 31 years old and he got 18.9, 20.3 and 10 mins respectively in his last 3 seasons. He's a valuable veteran and too good of an outside weapon to play less than 8-10 mins per game. But there are only 9 mins left for both Novak and Evans with the mins distribution so far above. But let's say Novak is too bad on defense and can't stay on the court too much, so 7 mins is enough for him.

Jeremy Evans has played 9.4, 7.5, 5.8 and 18.3!!! minutes per game respectively in his four seasons with the Jazz. Obviously he will seek more but how much time does he deserve honestly? To me, 12 mpg at most. But my projections so far above leave him only a whopping 2 minutes at the PF. And he's unlikely to get much playing time at SF with Gordy, Hood, Felix there. Maybe he should just do his best to battle with Booker for playing time.

Favors - 30
Kanter - 28
Gobert - 16
Booker - 13
Novak - 7
Evans - 2

Anyway, in all this, the most important thing to me is the minutes that Gobert will get. If his playing time suffers for the sake of having loads of big men, it will be another stupid management mistake of the Jazz team.

 

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Hopefully one or two guys play well enough to force a trade. That'd be a lovely problem to have.

 

[colton]

The minute distribution with 6 bigs is pretty hard though.

Derrick Favors got 30.2 mpg last year and shouldn't get any less this year. Let's say 30 mins flat.

Enes Kanter got 26.7 and he should get around that. I'd want him to get 28 mins.

Rudy Gobert played only 9.6 mpg last year and desperately needs playing time. I would want to give him minimum 18 minutes but let's say 16 mins for now.

Trevor Booker has played 16.4, 25.2, 18,5 and 21.6 mpg in his 4 seasons respectively. He will want around 20 mins this year as well. But given his productivity within the pt he had, I doubt he would get anything close to 20 mins. I would give him 13 mins or so at best, if he deserves more maybe he can get a few more minutes at SF, of course only if he can.

Steve Novak is still 31 years old and he got 18.9, 20.3 and 10 mins respectively in his last 3 seasons. He's a valuable veteran and too good of an outside weapon to play less than 8-10 mins per game. But there are only 9 mins left for both Novak and Evans with the mins distribution so far above. But let's say Novak is too bad on defense and can't stay on the court too much, so 7 mins is enough for him.

Jeremy Evans has played 9.4, 7.5, 5.8 and 18.3!!! minutes per game respectively in his four seasons with the Jazz. Obviously he will seek more but how much time does he deserve honestly? To me, 12 mpg at most. But my projections so far above leave him only a whopping 2 minutes at the PF. And he's unlikely to get much playing time at SF with Gordy, Hood, Felix there. Maybe he should just do his best to battle with Booker for playing time.

Favors - 30
Kanter - 28
Gobert - 16
Booker - 13
Novak - 7
Evans - 2

Anyway, in all this, the most important thing to me is the minutes that Gobert will get. If his playing time suffers for the sake of having loads of big men, it will be another stupid management mistake of the Jazz team.

Good analysis, but keep in mind injuries typically make it so there are 105 or 106 total minutes to distribute rather than 96 as one might assume.

 

[ema]

Good analysis, but keep in mind injuries typically make it so there are 105 or 106 total minutes to distribute rather than 96 as one might assume.

Yes, you are right. Thank God there will be some injuries. So, we could hopefully increase Gobert's minutes.

Though, please correct me if I'm wrong, when everything said and done, the total mins for the two positions will be still 96 on the paper, right? I mean, it's more like, the amount of players sharing the minutes diminishes during an injury, rather than the minutes being increased at total.

And it's because, the amount of the missed games by a player due to an injury doesn't count within the divisor number while they calculate the said player's average minutes. I mean, if Kanter misses 20 games because of an injury for example, obviously we don't divide his total mins to 82 games, we divide it by 62. If it wasn't the case, even though an injury will be beneficial for other players' playing time, the average minutes of the injured player or players itself would be diminished by the amount of the average time of their injuries, at the end.

Am I missing something?


Edit: Btw, I don't even know wth I just did ask. I think I'm onto something nonsensical, lol. Sorry if that's the case. I'm sick in my bed, having a day off today and my head is spinning like crazy right now.

 

[addictionary]

I like the setups going small more. More talent on the floor as much as a much higher level of pace. I was about to vote 5 but went with 4. It should be just enough. I don't like the big man shooting thing too much. A big man should bump the opponent inside. Open up lanes for the fast guards, cutters. But a variety on offense is always a blessing and I wouldn't blame any big for playing like a forward as long as they do their actual job. Not like today's power forwards and centers who can shoot the 3 ball but never give any effort on defense.

It should be like "No defense? Sit down." for Quin.

 

[GVC]

Though, please correct me if I'm wrong, when everything said and done, the total mins for the two positions will be still 96 on the paper, right? I mean, it's more like, the amount of players sharing the minutes diminishes during an injury, rather than the minutes being increased at total.

Yeah. I prefer when healthy/available lineups, which add up to 48 minutes at each position. Sure, at the end of the season the numbers will be different, but it seems to be more relevant to have an idea how players will be used when everyone is healthy. For growth/development, using total minutes probably makes a lot more sense anyway.

 

[colton]

Yes, you are right. Thank God there will be some injuries. So, we could hopefully increase Gobert's minutes.

Though, please correct me if I'm wrong, when everything said and done, the total mins for the two positions will be still 96 on the paper, right? I mean, it's more like, the amount of players sharing the minutes diminishes during an injury, rather than the minutes being increased at total.

And it's because, the amount of the missed games by a player due to an injury doesn't count within the divisor number while they calculate the said player's average minutes. I mean, if Kanter misses 20 games because of an injury for example, obviously we don't divide his total mins to 82 games, we divide it by 62. If it wasn't the case, even though an injury will be beneficial for other players' playing time, the average minutes of the injured player or players itself would be diminished by the amount of the average time of their injuries, at the end.

Am I missing something?


Edit: Btw, I don't even know wth I just did ask. I think I'm onto something nonsensical, lol. Sorry if that's the case. I'm sick in my bed, having a day off today and my head is spinning like crazy right now.

Your edit made me smile, because I wasn't quite sure what you were asking either.

Anyway, you are correct that it of course doesn't change the number of minutes per game. It affects the denominator, as you said. But the end result is that at the end of the season when you look at the minutes per game of all the bigs, it looks like there was more than 96 minutes to go around.

 

[colton]

Yeah. I prefer when healthy/available lineups, which add up to 48 minutes at each position. Sure, at the end of the season the numbers will be different, but it seems to be more relevant to have an idea how players will be used when everyone is healthy.

I agree that that can be helpful...but then if you use the last season averages to predict this season's minutes, like ECTYA did, you're comparing apples to oranges. You've got to be consistent.