Jazz make a trade at the deadline?

[Cappy_Smurf]

Please name the cap mistakes I make or comments that indicate I don't know what I'm talking about.. I'll wait...

I didn't say that you don't know what you're talking about, but I do question whether or not you should be talking down to others as if you're an expert on the subject, and I feel that way about anyone who disrespects DL as if he is making mistakes that should be no-brainers, or makes comments about the Millers being cheap.

You use hindsight to tell everyone what we should have done with our cap space, while ignoring other legitimate reasons why teams maintain room under the cap. Utah has done this for years for a few reasons: For one, it gives greater flexibility in case a significant trade comes along that we might have trouble pulling off otherwise. #2 is because Utah has been able to pick up draft picks/assets in the past by facilitating a trade for some other dumb team that blew all their cap space and then didn't have enough flexibility to make a trade they wanted, or just wanted to get below the LT. #2 isn't really as relevant since the cap jumped and everyone has cap space, but it will be again when things level out.

Just because a trade never happened, doesn't mean we obviously should have used up all our cap space by picking up minor assets. Hindsight doesn't make any of us smarter than Dennis Lindsey. If DL knew ahead of time that our cap space would go unused, no doubt he would try and utilize it. However, unlike us fans judging the situation after the fact, he has to work with what he knows at the time, and it makes sense to give yourself the best chance possible, in case a home run opportunity should present itself.


When talking about LT, you said to ignore history and wait for that day to come, when it already has come. Twice.

You perpetuate the myth of the Millers being cheap and talk about selling picks, while completely ignoring the pick the Millers bought in order to draft Gobert.


Anyway, my intent wasn't to say you don't have a better grasp on the CBA than most posters around here, because I think you do. However, it really bugs me when ANYONE starts griping about the Millers being cheap or DL being inept, while acting like there aren't multiple angles and good reasons for such things as maintaining room under the cap. The idea that not spending money = the Millers are cheap, is overly simplistic and quite frankly, wrong.



P.S. I want to give stifle tower credit. I have been having this discussion on these boards for years, and Stifle used to be one of posters repeating this idea of the Millers being cheap. Good to see he's turned towards the correct side of this discussion.

 

[NAOS]

I didn't say that you don't know what you're talking about, but I do question whether or not you should be talking down to others as if you're an expert on the subject, and I feel that way about anyone who disrespects DL as if he is making mistakes that should be no-brainers, or makes comments about the Millers being cheap.

You use hindsight to tell everyone what we should have done with our cap space, while ignoring other legitimate reasons why teams maintain room under the cap. Utah has done this for years for a few reasons: For one, it gives greater flexibility in case a significant trade comes along that we might have trouble pulling off otherwise. #2 is because Utah has been able to pick up draft picks/assets in the past by facilitating a trade for some other dumb team that blew all their cap space and then didn't have enough flexibility to make a trade they wanted, or just wanted to get below the LT. #2 isn't really as relevant since the cap jumped and everyone has cap space, but it will be again when things level out.

Just because a trade never happened, doesn't mean we obviously should have used up all our cap space by picking up minor assets. Hindsight doesn't make any of us smarter than Dennis Lindsey. If DL knew ahead of time that our cap space would go unused, no doubt he would try and utilize it. However, unlike us fans judging the situation after the fact, he has to work with what he knows at the time, and it makes sense to give yourself the best chance possible, in case a home run opportunity should present itself.


When talking about LT, you said to ignore history and wait for that day to come, when it already has come. Twice.

You perpetuate the myth of the Millers being cheap and talk about selling picks, while completely ignoring the pick the Millers bought in order to draft Gobert.


Anyway, my intent wasn't to say you don't have a better grasp on the CBA than most posters around here, because I think you do. However, it really bugs me when ANYONE starts griping about the Millers being cheap or DL being inept, while acting like there aren't multiple angles and good reasons for such things as maintaining room under the cap. The idea that not spending money = the Millers are cheap, is overly simplistic and quite frankly, wrong.



P.S. I want to give stifle tower credit. I have been having this discussion on these boards for years, and Stifle used to be one of posters repeating this idea of the Millers being cheap. Good to see he's turned towards the correct side of this discussion.

My opinions have been similar to his RE: the use of the cap since the GSW trade. But you make some good points here. The biggest problem I see with your post is that it effectively silences critiques of the the FO under the banner of "we just don't know enough." There's truth to that, but it isn't as closed off as you present it.

FWIW, over the past few seasons HH has presented a few cap-friendly, asset-management type of deals that would have made the team better. Pragmatic deals that didn't involve "stars" or any other such noise. Players who would have signed for the $$ he suggested.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I didn't say that you don't know what you're talking about, but I do question whether or not you should be talking down to others as if you're an expert on the subject, and I feel that way about anyone who disrespects DL as if he is making mistakes that should be no-brainers, or makes comments about the Millers being cheap.

You use hindsight to tell everyone what we should have done with our cap space, while ignoring other legitimate reasons why teams maintain room under the cap. Utah has done this for years for a few reasons: For one, it gives greater flexibility in case a significant trade comes along that we might have trouble pulling off otherwise. #2 is because Utah has been able to pick up draft picks/assets in the past by facilitating a trade for some other dumb team that blew all their cap space and then didn't have enough flexibility to make a trade they wanted, or just wanted to get below the LT. #2 isn't really as relevant since the cap jumped and everyone has cap space, but it will be again when things level out.

Just because a trade never happened, doesn't mean we obviously should have used up all our cap space by picking up minor assets. Hindsight doesn't make any of us smarter than Dennis Lindsey. If DL knew ahead of time that our cap space would go unused, no doubt he would try and utilize it. However, unlike us fans judging the situation after the fact, he has to work with what he knows at the time, and it makes sense to give yourself the best chance possible, in case a home run opportunity should present itself.


When talking about LT, you said to ignore history and wait for that day to come, when it already has come. Twice.

You perpetuate the myth of the Millers being cheap and talk about selling picks, while completely ignoring the pick the Millers bought in order to draft Gobert.


Anyway, my intent wasn't to say you don't have a better grasp on the CBA than most posters around here, because I think you do. However, it really bugs me when ANYONE starts griping about the Millers being cheap or DL being inept, while acting like there aren't multiple angles and good reasons for such things as maintaining room under the cap. The idea that not spending money = the Millers are cheap, is overly simplistic and quite frankly, wrong.



P.S. I want to give stifle tower credit. I have been having this discussion on these boards for years, and Stifle used to be one of posters repeating this idea of the Millers being cheap. Good to see he's turned towards the correct side of this discussion.

I have lots of issues with what you are saying and what you are insinuating from what I said... but am going to back up to my original statement...

If we do not extend Hill, make a trade for a player, or make a trade for a future asset using our cap space then that is more signs of the team being operated for profit above basketball considerations... or in other words cheap owners. We are at the salary floor and stand to pocket 13M by staying there. The point of operating under the cap is to do stuff... as you have astutely pointed out... I would like to point out that we have been here before for most of the last three years and done nothing that we could not have done by being at or over the cap. So either there have been zero deals getting done around stuff like this or... we've been pocketing the cash. We can still be flexible and spend up to the cap... as a matter of fact we might even get more flexibility by doing so.

i also know that we went over the tax in the past... we likely never do so again... I'm not recommending we do that tbh... im just noticing a pattern here of us being at the floor and then when the deadlines pass the company line is "flexibility, no deals out there, yada yada" . I'm not buying it at all... because other teams have made deals that we could have. I think DL is great... I think our management is good... I think they've been given a budget and are operating around it. It all makes good business sense and makes the millers money, but some of it hurts what we could be doing on the basketball court. Look at the payroll of the teams around us... look at ours... realize we've been in the bottom five the last 2-3 years... we've been in the payroll range of the bottom feeders and tankers.

Another issue is you mentioned that bottoming out was a good example of them spending money... our payroll was low those year (which was fine) and our attendance was still good and during those years we made a profit... something most teams don't do (at least on paper) probably more than some of our playoff years.

We can agree to disagree but calling me insane for not buying the company line is tough... we will see what happens but if we can't get anything done I'm comfortable with everything I've said. It either means DL isn't reading the landscape correctly and not getting deals done and mismanaging one of our assets to get better or the millers are taking it all in to the coffers and the basketball operations suffers a little because of it. I don't think they are setting it aside to pay luxury tax someday.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Only trade I would make is Rudy Gay.

If we end up facing the Warriors in the playoffs, I think Rudy Gay is a guy who could potentially make the series different. People forget, but he is 6'8 w/ a giant wingspan. When GSW go small w/ KD at the 4, Gay would be an excellent small ball 4.

Not saying I would give up a ton of assets to get him, but I would give up draft picks. I think Sacramento pretty much knows he wants out of there, so they should look to deal him for w/e they can get. IDK who is going to really splurge to get him, but he would be a perfect fit here. Rudy Gay for Joe Johnson works straight up and just throw in some combination of 1st round picks.

Then you basically cancel out all backup PG play, giving all those minutes to Burks (spot minutes for Exum here and there). Ingles becomes your backup 2, Gay your 3/4. Minutes distribution come playoff time would be like:

PG: Hill (35)/Burks (13)
SG: Hood (30)/Ingles (10)/Burks(8)
SF: Hayward (38)/Gay(5)/Ingles (5)
PF: Favors (18)/Gay(20)/Lyles(10)
C: Gobert (35)/Favors (13)

Minutes Favors plays alongside Gobert or Gay at the 4 fluctuate depending on matchup.

Tell me that isnt a boss 9 man playoff rotation.

He's an undervalued target imo... the narrative has gone too far on him.

The only issue would be his role with us... he doesn't like playing the 4 even though he is well suited for it. I'm not sure he's a guy with the right attitude to do what his team needs to win. Just some of the stuff I hear from being out near the Kings.

Maybe he gets in a different environment ant figures it out.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

My opinions have been similar to his RE: the use of the cap since the GSW trade. But you make some good points here. The biggest problem I see with your post is that it effectively silences critiques of the the FO under the banner of "we just don't know enough." There's truth to that, but it isn't as closed off as you present it.

FWIW, over the past few seasons HH has presented a few cap-friendly, asset-management type of deals that would have made the team better. Pragmatic deals that didn't involve "stars" or any other such noise. Players who would have signed for the $$ he suggested.

One more thing I'd like to bring up with what HH has been saying, is that the team has been in rebuild mode for the last several years. That #12 pick came up big for us in getting Hill, and throwing a bunch of money around to strengthen the bench would have been counterproductive to getting a good enough pick to make that deal. Some people will take that as the Jazz were trying to lose/tank, blah, whatever, but let's just say DL wasn't interested in overachieving the last few years.

Fore now, I'm just going to let this go and wait for another year or two and revisit this when the Millers are spending a **** load of money on the team. Hell, even if saving money was their priority over the last few years(it wasn't), I wouldn't blame them a bit knowing that in a few years, they will be paying out the ***.

 

[NAOS]

One more thing I'd like to bring up with what HH has been saying, is that the team has been in rebuild mode for the last several years. That #12 pick came up big for us in getting Hill, and throwing a bunch of money around to strengthen the bench would have been counterproductive to getting a good enough pick to make that deal. Some people will take that as the Jazz were trying to lose/tank, blah, whatever, but let's just say DL wasn't interested in overachieving the last few years.

Fore now, I'm just going to let this go and wait for another year or two and revisit this when the Millers are spending a **** load of money on the team. Hell, even if saving money was their priority over the last few years(it wasn't), I wouldn't blame them a bit knowing that in a few years, they will be paying out the ***.

it is a bit weird, though, when you hammer someone for using "hindsight", but then act like your vision of the "future" is all but certain. The points you're making to defend the FO have had lots of good stuff in them, but they definitely go too far in certain respects.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

One more thing I'd like to bring up with what HH has been saying, is that the team has been in rebuild mode for the last several years. That #12 pick came up big for us in getting Hill, and throwing a bunch of money around to strengthen the bench would have been counterproductive to getting a good enough pick to make that deal. Some people will take that as the Jazz were trying to lose/tank, blah, whatever, but let's just say DL wasn't interested in overachieving the last few years.

Fore now, I'm just going to let this go and wait for another year or two and revisit this when the Millers are spending a **** load of money on the team. Hell, even if saving money was their priority over the last few years(it wasn't), I wouldn't blame them a bit knowing that in a few years, they will be paying out the ***.

So we sign some bench assets and make the playoffs last year... pick goes from 12 to 15 and the trade still works... guessing Prince still would have been there.

We'd also have a bench asset that moved the needle for us... could be used in trade to pick up more assets.

I'm sure that was DL plan... miss the playoffs by a game and get to #12... thats where the action stops. (Hint... they tried to do the opposite... they got Mack at the deadline)

 

[FalseFlagg K]

i'm uncomfortable with the conversation here ... can't you two just revert to name calling and hysterical posturing like normal people ????

 

[Game6Conley]

No, if they do I hope its a Derrick Rose rental as the backup for pennies on the dollar (Mack + Diaw + 2nd rd picks)

(Jazz would go from the 4th cheapest roster to the 8th)

 

[The Fresh Prince]

If we do a trade it's a Kyle Korver like trade. I'd assume that Mack is our Giricek.