John Stockton’s dirty little secret

[fishonjazz]

That's how you take it.

I never bashed on Stockton or was critical of him in this thread.

But yes, I do disagree with people that make ludicrous claims about Stockton or other players. And yes, when people debate me about their silly claims that are false I defend myself.

Maybe it's just too sensitive a subject for you and thee.

Too sensitive of a subject for me lol. What is it that tells you that? I’m not the one going on and on page after page about this.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Oscar is an all time great. I never said Stockton was an overall better player, but he is better at pg then Oscar. Any idiot can see Oscar would present matchup issues for the diminutive 6-1 185lb John Stockton, Oscars whole game was built around bullying smaller pg’s. All he did was back people down and shoot over the top. Stockton can’t defend against that. I have no problem saying Magic is a better all around player, but he’s not a better pg then Stockton. No one ever played the position better with more perfection then Stockton did. Stockton is the best to ever play the position period, and not sure how that can be even debated.

I do think Stockton is a top 10-15 player all time.


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Those are just arbitrary distinctions for what playing PG is. Winning is playing the position correctly.

I definitely don't have Stockton top 10 all time NBA players. For me Malone is slightly better and probably top 20 maybe top 15. Stockton is a small step behind probably top 25 for me, maybe top 20.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Too sensitive of a subject for me lol. What is it that tells you that? I’m not the one going on and on page after page about this.

That you seem to be getting upset and bothered about a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm going on for pages having a discussion about old jazz players on a jazz message board. That's kind of what this message board is for. It's the off season. I do respond to people who are engaging in a discussion.

 

[LogGrad98]

Here is the peak season for both players.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...kton&y2=1989&player_id2=stockjo01&idx=players

Cp3 at his peak was better than Stockton at his peak according to these stats.

It is interesting to look at this over their entire career, or at least over CP3's career to date. So ran this with the cumulative numbers through CP3's and Stock's 13th year. Just about the only stats CP3 is ahead is in win shares, BPM, and VORP. DRtg and ORtg are basically a wash. Stock is ahead in all of the category percentages (Ast%, Stl%, EFG, etc.).

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ct=John+Stockton&player_id2=stockjo01&y2=1997

But you also have to take win shares and such with a grain of salt. They are at best an approximation and depend on lots of different factors. When looking at it over a season, for example, in 1990 Olajuwan put up a line of 24/14/4.6 blocks, 2 steals, 3 assists, yet Terry Porter, for example, had more win shares that season (close to the same, but a bit higher), along with higher ORtg, DRtg, etc. The very next season Porter had higher win shares and VORP than Hakeem. Would anyone claim that Porter was better than Hakeem? Would anyone in their right mind want to swap Hakeem for Porter? No. And not just no, hell no. A lot depends on their role in the team, their team's success, the other players around them, etc.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1990

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1991

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

That you seem to be getting upset and bothered about a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm going on for pages having a discussion about old jazz players on a jazz message board. That's kind of what this message board is for. It's the off season. I do respond to people who are engaging in a discussion.

I’m the sensitive one. Fish has been pretty been very calm with his posts while owning you. You and I have been the sensitive ones. Me having to deal with an idiot and you doing a lot of backtracking, because your an idiot.

 

[Ron Mexico]

It is interesting to look at this over their entire career, or at least over CP3's career to date. So ran this with the cumulative numbers through CP3's and Stock's 13th year. Just about the only stats CP3 is ahead is in win shares, BPM, and VORP. DRtg and ORtg are basically a wash. Stock is ahead in all of the category percentages (Ast%, Stl%, EFG, etc.).

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ct=John+Stockton&player_id2=stockjo01&y2=1997

But you also have to take win shares and such with a grain of salt. They are at best an approximation and depend on lots of different factors. When looking at it over a season, for example, in 1990 Olajuwan put up a line of 24/14/4.6 blocks, 2 steals, 3 assists, yet Terry Porter, for example, had more win shares that season (close to the same, but a bit higher), along with higher ORtg, DRtg, etc. The very next season Porter had higher win shares and VORP than Hakeem. Would anyone claim that Porter was better than Hakeem? Would anyone in their right mind want to swap Hakeem for Porter? No. And not just no, hell no. A lot depends on their role in the team, their team's success, the other players around them, etc.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1990

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ect=Terry+Porter&player_id2=portete01&y2=1991

I would say there are other categories he is ahead in as well but it doesn't really matter.

I think for their careers Stockton is ahead by a decent amount. CP3 stats are basically just his prime. Stockton's stats have his decline years bringing his averages down.

 

[fishonjazz]

That you seem to be getting upset and bothered about a friendly discussion.

Yes, I'm going on for pages having a discussion about old jazz players on a jazz message board. That's kind of what this message board is for. It's the off season. I do respond to people who are engaging in a discussion.

What was pointing you to think I was upset and bothered? Was I cursing? Using all caps? Name calling? Making very long drawn out posts trying to prove I’m right?

Why would you think I was upset. I was just having a discussion and speaking my opinion about how you come across on this topic. Nothing to get upset about.
You kinda seem upset and bothered to me tbh.

 

[LogGrad98]

What was pointing you to think I was upset and bothered? Was I cursing? Using all caps? Name calling? Making very long drawn out posts trying to prove I’m right?

Why would you think I was upset. I was just having a discussion and speaking my opinion about how you come across on this topic. Nothing to get upset about.
You kinda seem upset and bothered to me tbh.

Good hell, CALM DOWN!!!

 

[Ron Mexico]

What was pointing you to think I was upset and bothered? Was I cursing? Using all caps? Name calling? Making very long drawn out posts trying to prove I’m right?

Why would you think I was upset. I was just having a discussion and speaking my opinion about how you come across on this topic. Nothing to get upset about.
You kinda seem upset and bothered to me tbh.

My bad then. I assumed you were upset or bothered when you made up that I liked bashing on Stockton and being critical of him and made a post in the pet peeves section about Stockton haters/doubters. I assumed that something bothered people when they post about it being their pet peeve.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I’m the sensitive one. Fish has been pretty been very calm with his posts while owning you. You and I have been the sensitive ones. Me having to deal with an idiot and you doing a lot of backtracking, because your an idiot.

What have I backtracked on?

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

What have I backtracked on?

Backtracking the backtrack lol


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[infection]

Good hell, CALM DOWN!!!