Added to Calendar: 07-30-20

Game Thread Jul 30, 2020: Utah Jazz vs New Orleans Pelicans

Release the Kraken

Well-Known Member
I occasionally see this rhetorical tactic from people who want protestors to go away or or organizations to lose focus and scatter their resources. I have never seen it from someone who uses their own resources for a social justice cause they believe in. Perhaps you're the exception.
Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else, I'm not Shaq that talks about social injustice and establishing your brand in the same sentence. I don't pander in that kind of sophistry. My argument is that there are more sinister forces at play implicit in our economic system as well as our collective psyches; and that "systemic" racism is either a byproduct or an excuse depending on your orientation. It is a paradigm that encourages the accumulation of unlimited wealth at the expense of resources and human dignity and therefore is implicitly oppressive in nature, creating opportunity for some and hardship and disillusionment for others. It is a system that glorifies brands and corporations as symbols of immortality. It's explicitly exploitative in nature - I mean it's good to exploit resources and your advantage isn't it? I.e., winning is everything.

It really doesn't have a lot to do with what you look like (not physically at least), the chief function of law enforcement has always been to preserve the status quo, to protect property and wealth. Again, racial profiling is just a byproduct. Until the plebes of this world learn to strip away the veneer and couch the dilemma in the proper terms; I mean collectively and in solidarity, we will continue to keep chasing our own tails, going round in circles as we are now, IMHO of course.
 
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whatthe

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else, I'm not Shaq that talks about social injustice and establishing your brand in the same sentence. I don't pander in that kind of sophistry. My argument is that there are more sinister forces at play implicit in our economic system as well as our collective psyches; and that "systemic" racism is either a byproduct or an excuse depending on your orientation. It is a paradigm that encourages the accumulation of unlimited wealth at the expense of resources and human dignity and therefore is implicitly oppressive in nature, creating opportunity for some and hardship and disillusionment for others. It is a system that glorifies brands and corporations as symbols of immortality. It's explicitly exploitative in nature - I mean it's good to exploit resources and your advantage isn't it? I.e., winning is everything.

It really doesn't have a lot to do with what you look like (not physically at least), the chief function of law enforcement has always been to preserve the status quo, to protect property and wealth. Again, racial profiling is just a byproduct. Until the plebes of this world learn to strip away the veneer and couch the dilemma in the proper terms; I mean collectively and in solidarity, we will continue to keep chasing our own tails, going round in circles as we are now, IMHO of course.
What about the murder of Breona? Her constitutional rights we violated and she was killed in her own home. No knocking, no presenting a warrant. Just break in, and start shooting because they thought a druggie lived there. That's not keeping the status quo - that's the exact opposite.

So come on, there is work to be done here. We need to rethink our constitution and the police. We can't muscle people around unless someone's life is in immediate danger.. Geez.

And don't get me going on respecting the constitution. What is Trump doing asking for the election to be delayed? That is unconstitutional to the extreme. He benefits by getting an extra year in office, maybe two or more. That's fascistic by definition without doubt. He is not entitled to the office, but he doesn't want to lose. That's garbage man, pure filthy garbage.
 
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RobDMB

Well-Known Member
I love the Jazz, but this team is fatally flawed. The lack of chemistry is apparent. The Jazz have just as much collective talent as they've ever had, but they can't put it together. This whole restart is going to be really demoralizing. This game everybody looks sloppy and lost. If we can't even compete with OKC, we might just as well just look forward to a 4-0 sweep in the first round this year at the hands of anyone we play. Houston, OKC, Denver, and Dallas will all run circles around us in this state.
 

Thee Idiotic Minivan K

Well-Known Member
I love the Jazz, but this team is fatally flawed. The lack of chemistry is apparent. The Jazz have just as much collective talent as they've ever had, but they can't put it together. This whole restart is going to be really demoralizing. This game everybody looks sloppy and lost. If we can't even compete with OKC, we might just as well just look forward to a 4-0 sweep in the first round this year at the hands of anyone we play. Houston, OKC, Denver, and Dallas will all run circles around us in this state.
Well we are minus our second leading scorer, and only real sf.
 

SCS

Well-Known Member
The primary weakness of this team is clear. It started last offseason.

The Jazz let Favors walk in an attempt to put a better fit next to Gobert for playoff basketball. Nikola Mirotic became their primary free agency target because not only could he stretch the floor and shoot, but also because he is 6'10 and can rebound and block shots. Mirotic decided to go overseas. The Jazz then shifted their focus from Mirotic to their second option... Bojan Bogdanovic, who they signed. Now, Bogey has been FANTASTIC for our offense. Clearly a better offensive player than Mirotic. But Bogey is also only 6'8 and he doesn't defend well or rebound. Which means the Jazz took a bigger hit defensively than they hoped.

Now the Jazz attempted to mitigate the defensive hit by bringing in Ed Davis who had been a strong defender and rebounder throughout a long career. But he ended up having a terrible season start to finish. The Jazz also added veteran Jeff Green who they thought would help the situation. He completely flamed out and was cut.

Enter the backups of the backup plan... Tony Bradley and Georges Niang. Bradley has good flashes but the bad far outweighs the good and it's clear he's still not ready for consistent NBA minutes. Georges Niang can shoot. But as noted above... defense is what the Jazz need. And Niang can't defend to save his life.

The only players above 6'7 in the Jazz regular rotation are...

Rudy Gobert 7'1
Tony Bradley 6'10 (shouldn't be getting NBA minutes)
Bojan Bogdanovic 6'8 (lacks athleticism and defense)
Joe Ingles 6'8 (lacks athleticism)
Georges Niang 6'7 (shouldn't be getting NBA minutes)

I mean it's obvious what we need. Two backup bigs with positional size, length, athleticism and the ability to defend. One in the mold of Favors/Davis. One in the mold of Crowder/Green.

The Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles, Bogey, Conley, Oneale, Clarkson core is fine. They are capable of getting us where we want to go. But they need the right pieces around them to put them in the best situation.

We can't keep asking Gobert to do EVERYTHING for the team defensively.

We can't keep asking 6'4 Royce Oneale to guard 6'8/6'9 wings when his strength is guarding smaller perimeter players like Harden/Booker.

We can't rely on Oneale, Bogey, Ingles to be high level rebounders.

We can't rely on Clarkson/Conley to be lockdown perimeter defenders.

You see what I'm saying? We need better ancillary pieces who allow our core to play to strengths.
 

Catchall

Well-Known Member
2019 Prediction Contest Winner
The primary weakness of this team is clear. It started last offseason.

The Jazz let Favors walk in an attempt to put a better fit next to Gobert for playoff basketball. Nikola Mirotic became their primary free agency target because not only could he stretch the floor and shoot, but also because he is 6'10 and can rebound and block shots. Mirotic decided to go overseas. The Jazz then shifted their focus from Mirotic to their second option... Bojan Bogdanovic, who they signed. Now, Bogey has been FANTASTIC for our offense. Clearly a better offensive player than Mirotic. But Bogey is also only 6'8 and he doesn't defend well or rebound. Which means the Jazz took a bigger hit defensively than they hoped.

Now the Jazz attempted to mitigate the defensive hit by bringing in Ed Davis who had been a strong defender and rebounder throughout a long career. But he ended up having a terrible season start to finish. The Jazz also added veteran Jeff Green who they thought would help the situation. He completely flamed out and was cut.

Enter the backups of the backup plan... Tony Bradley and Georges Niang. Bradley has good flashes but the bad far outweighs the good and it's clear he's still not ready for consistent NBA minutes. Georges Niang can shoot. But as noted above... defense is what the Jazz need. And Niang can't defend to save his life.

The only players above 6'7 in the Jazz regular rotation are...

Rudy Gobert 7'1
Tony Bradley 6'10 (shouldn't be getting NBA minutes)
Bojan Bogdanovic 6'8 (lacks athleticism and defense)
Joe Ingles 6'8 (lacks athleticism)
Georges Niang 6'7 (shouldn't be getting NBA minutes)

I mean it's obvious what we need. Two backup bigs with positional size, length, athleticism and the ability to defend. One in the mold of Favors/Davis. One in the mold of Crowder/Green.

The Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles, Bogey, Conley, Oneale, Clarkson core is fine. They are capable of getting us where we want to go. But they need the right pieces around them to put them in the best situation.

We can't keep asking Gobert to do EVERYTHING for the team defensively.

We can't keep asking 6'4 Royce Oneale to guard 6'8/6'9 wings when his strength is guarding smaller perimeter players like Harden/Booker.

We can't rely on Oneale, Bogey, Ingles to be high level rebounders.

We can't rely on Clarkson/Conley to be lockdown perimeter defenders.

You see what I'm saying? We need better ancillary pieces who allow our core to play to strengths.
Yes, but these ancillary pieces also have to shoot. We can't have more than one non-shooter on the floor. When Mudiay came into the game today, the Thunder just ignored him (rightfully so) and clogged up the paint so that the Jazz couldn't get shots off or passes through. This is why the Jazz moved on from Favors in the first place, and Rubio too.

A guy like Christian Wood could be great on this team.

BTW, Royce does a good job guarding wings up to 6'7". Bigger players just shoot over him though. Gallinari dunked on him for an and-1 today.
 

Catchall

Well-Known Member
2019 Prediction Contest Winner
The biggest mistake of this team was not realizing Mitchell is a pg not a sg during his rookie season. He’d be much better at running an offense and certainly much further along.
I like the idea of playing him next to another guard or wing who can play both on and off the ball, but yeah, he's a 1.
 

SCS

Well-Known Member
Yes, but these ancillary pieces also have to shoot. We can't have more than one non-shooter on the floor. When Mudiay came into the game today, the Thunder just ignored him (rightfully so) and clogged up the paint so that the Jazz couldn't get shots off or passes through. This is why the Jazz moved on from Favors in the first place.
Which is why I said that we need one in the mold of Favors/Davis, and one in the mold of Crowder/Green. The one in the Crowder/Green mold will be able to stretch and not be total a** at everything else like Niang.

Niang is the perfect example of why shooting matters but you shouldn't be so damn obsessed with it that you ignore everything else.
 

//r00t 4 Jazz

Well-Known Member
To nit pick, the Jazz didn't let Favors walk, they traded him so he could make his last year contract money (think it is 16mil) and get him on a team where he'd get more playing time. But yes the Jazz miss his size, athleticism and toughness (he had a quiet toughness about him).
 

Hekate

Well-Known Member
Our problem is not that we let Favors go, he did not fit well on offense. It's just that we filled the team with non-defenders. Bogdanovic, Clarkson, Mudiay, Mitchell, Niang. Ingles and Conley regressed defensively, they are just meh.

Royce and Rudy are the only plus defenders. That's not nearly enough.

Watching the Raptors-Heat game has been a revelation. Freaking Dragic passes off as a plus defender because he is surrounded by high effort guys. We are never reaching that level of physicality with this of group of players.
 
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