Ehh. He has been off physically. It’s pretty obvious.
Keep, Trade, or cut? (Re-sign if you will)
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As far as trades it's all about the value we could receive. But I really want to keep Kessler, Flip, Collier.... If Sexton wanted to sign another contract with us I gladly would if the price was fair. I like Collins also but I think someone is willing to pay him more than they should. Everyone else - it ranges between I would trade if the offer leaned toward us (JC) to give us an offer we cannot refuse (Lauri).
cctrackstar
Well-Known Member
how could we decide any of this when the team played the year in a way specifically designed to tank the season? who was really injured? who was really playing at their best? i heard rumors that players were told to try new play styles to 'expand their games' (meaning do new things which would take time to learn and cause them to suck eggs) i can't make appraisals when the data is flawed. (side note, i liked springer, but he short, and we have a lot of short)
David Hume
Well-Known Member
His numbers suggest efficiency. I’d like to see what he can do on a better Utah Jazz team.
The Jazz Wonderbra
Well-Known Member
I think Sexton gets too much love. Collins was more efficient and a better team player.
Sexton freaked out when he didn't have the ball and he still makes the same "offense? screw the team offense. Imadoit" plays that he always has made.
I love Sexton as a competitor, but as a team player? Let the experiment end.
Sexton freaked out when he didn't have the ball and he still makes the same "offense? screw the team offense. Imadoit" plays that he always has made.
I love Sexton as a competitor, but as a team player? Let the experiment end.
Best player on a 17 win team? Don't let me get too excited. Honestly other than Collier and Kessler, who are the only two I think have the potential to be players on a winning team, I wouldn't be to bothered who got traded and waived as we build for the future.
I dont care if we keep him or trade him... but dumping him for nothing is not it. The war chest doesnt just magically refill itself. All these kids we draft deplete it gradually, and we dont wanna end up only having our own picks to build with.
Dude i hear what you're saying but what is his market value? There is no way he doesn't opt in for next year, but lets suggest he didn't what would his value be in the open market? Realistically his best value is as a salary dump on an expiring contract at some point next season, we might get a second rounder or a project player in return.
Sure, but low market value = cheap contract as well. He expanded his game and here he can continue to expand it or solidify himself as a guy who can do more than just spot up.
Besides, if he was the best player in a 17 win team then anyone else here was the 2nd, 3rd or 4th best (etc) on a 17 win team. Its not like they are more valuable, right?
You cant just bleed players for nothing. Collins at least has some theoretical path to gain value.
Value depends on lots of things, age, contract and most importantly what they can contribute to winning. Collins puts up numbers but numbers aren't wins.
Handlogten's Heros
Well-Known Member
2019 Award Winner
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We have no sacred cows. So the answer to almost all these are “depends on what we are getting back”. Svi can bounce tho. I’m good on those minutes.
Because we’re at a roster crunch, we need to more ethically tank next year, and we need to replenish our dice rolls (draft pick horde), I’m hoping to consolidate value. An example of how I’d approach this if it is viable:
1. Lauri + Flip and/or Key (if necessary, and it probably is) for crippling salary (Paul George or Dejounte Murray) and a top-10 pick.
2. Collins and maybe Sexton for Bradley Beal (or other crippling salary), 1sts and maybe a 2032 swap (per @Handlogten's Heros on the JPod).
3. I would cut KMart2 for cap space. I’m not sure if a Renegotiate-and-Extend-and-Trade is a thing but whatever the case, I think R&E-ing Collins to the extent that it is possible and improves his value should be looked at.
4. Draft Wolf with 21 if he’s still there. Hopefully we can get Flagg + Bailey, Tre, VJ, Kas, or Kon with the top-10 pick we acquire. Suck *** more organically next year and hope luck shines on us (again?) next year.
If we do most of this and get some overdue luck. we should be good to let the cake bake. I’m probably gonna repost some iteration of this 30 times this offseason, but that’s the gist.
Also want to add that there will probably be several teams every single year that are jumpy to make moves to rebuild or retool and if we build a good foundation with a nice war chest of assets and salaries, we can round out the roster through trades on fire sale prices, especially with how inflated pick values have become (with so few teams holding so many picks). Think of teams going nowhere like the Kings or Bulls.
1. Lauri + Flip and/or Key (if necessary, and it probably is) for crippling salary (Paul George or Dejounte Murray) and a top-10 pick.
2. Collins and maybe Sexton for Bradley Beal (or other crippling salary), 1sts and maybe a 2032 swap (per @Handlogten's Heros on the JPod).
3. I would cut KMart2 for cap space. I’m not sure if a Renegotiate-and-Extend-and-Trade is a thing but whatever the case, I think R&E-ing Collins to the extent that it is possible and improves his value should be looked at.
4. Draft Wolf with 21 if he’s still there. Hopefully we can get Flagg + Bailey, Tre, VJ, Kas, or Kon with the top-10 pick we acquire. Suck *** more organically next year and hope luck shines on us (again?) next year.
If we do most of this and get some overdue luck. we should be good to let the cake bake. I’m probably gonna repost some iteration of this 30 times this offseason, but that’s the gist.
Also want to add that there will probably be several teams every single year that are jumpy to make moves to rebuild or retool and if we build a good foundation with a nice war chest of assets and salaries, we can round out the roster through trades on fire sale prices, especially with how inflated pick values have become (with so few teams holding so many picks). Think of teams going nowhere like the Kings or Bulls.
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Man, I told you not to do it.
First trade proposal is wild.
10th pick is supposedly the 10th best player in the draft (if everyone gets it correct, which I know never happens). But thats still "the mean" or close to it. I wanna see the draft year, where the guy who ended up being 10th best in his draft class was a true difference maker. Whats more important here is Lauri, Key and Flip are all either undeniably or arguably as good or better than 10th best players in their respective drafts.
So giving them all up for 1 stab at a guy who could end up being Cody Williams is just a wild and passionate way to squander away your future. I mean sure, there is the 2% chance we find Kawhi. But 98% of the times the dude is "not-Kawhi".
Top-10 really means top-5 but I’m speaking conservatively.
If for example you can have two of Flagg, Harper, Ace, VJ, or Tre and they hit, you have just turbocharged the ceiling of outcomes. I also think it’s the only way you could double-dip in this draft and I don’t think the other team would do it since Lauri had a bad year and we overpaid the **** out of him. I think the best value Key can provide a contender is being trade bait, and I think Wolf has a higher ceiling than Flip. Murray’s contract is actually pretty palatable for a deep-rebuilding team, Paul George is definitely overpaid but not actually a terrible player and again is palatable for a rebuilding team (whose best cap plays are being dumping grounds for bad salary on desperate win-now teams).
Lastly, if the Jazz are to load up on talent while simultaneously, successfully, organically tanking (bearing in mind they have to have a bottom-4 record to guarantee they keep their pick), having no vets worth a **** and trading out some of your improving rookie scale players is probably just necessary. The alternative is pulling the shenanigans they did this year and I just think that’s beyond the pale.
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It's interesting and I get the logic. Feels like we are trading low on Lauri and giving up on Flip and/or Keyonte too early though. It definitely has the potential to look like a horrible trade if any of them improve significantly.
The other reason I would hesitate to do all the things you said is that I do believe that it's good to have some functional vets for development. Specifically players that need to develop playmaking ability need to have someone to play make for. Collins was really important for Collier this year for example. It gets tricky on how to tank honorably and keep functional vets around while not being at risk to give up an important pick to OKC, so I get that it might not all be possible.
Lastly, I'm not super high on the upside of anyone outside of Flagg and Harper in this draft. I don't think that VJ, Tre, or Ace are super likely to be better than Lauri was last year for example. I do think there will be some very good players and potentially all stars outside of the top two, but I think it is very difficult to know who that will be.
Not sure I would want to bring Paul George into the mix for Jazz
He's near the end of his career on an enormous contract
He's been on four teams now and has not got a ring
He could be a distraction and cancer
Jazz should keep Collins He can do the same things George can for a lot less
He's younger and seems to like it here
Jazz need to keep stockpiling young talent
Teams seem to give up on players too quick and they become very good somewhere else
He's near the end of his career on an enormous contract
He's been on four teams now and has not got a ring
He could be a distraction and cancer
Jazz should keep Collins He can do the same things George can for a lot less
He's younger and seems to like it here
Jazz need to keep stockpiling young talent
Teams seem to give up on players too quick and they become very good somewhere else
homeytennis
Well-Known Member
The Jazz just had their worst season in team history. I would think every player would be on the trading block. See what kind of value is on the market. If it improves the outlook, pull the trigger.
No I get your logic. Had you said 5th pick I would not have called the trade out though.
But just keep in mind that draft is also a massive gamble. For example literally everyone liked Scoot and he was "#1 on a normal year without generational talent like Wemby".
The "Lauri for Scoot" was a concensus yes except "Hornets wouldnt do it". Also Hornets fans enraged when their FO picked Brandon Miller instead.