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Korver is trash

fishonjazz said:
Shooting yes. His all around game has been pretty good though. His rebounding, passing, lack of turnovers, and his plus minus have been good. And his team is winning more since the trade. (Which isnt saying much)

Last night is a good example.
He played 26 minutes, shot horridly from the field, but had 5 rebounds, 14 points (3-3 from the line), zero turnovers, 1 assist, 2 blocks, and was a +8 in a game that his team won by 1 point against the pacers in indiana.
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Those that claim he’s been awful in Cleveland are only trying to convince themselves this is a good trade.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Those that claim he’s been awful in Cleveland are only trying to convince themselves this is a good trade.
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Go look at his stats... numbers don’t lie... it was a solid trade. I’m rooting for the guy but he’s not playing well. He’s had some good individual games just like Korver has.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Go look at his stats... numbers don’t lie... it was a solid trade. I’m rooting for the guy but he’s not playing well. He’s had some good individual games just like Korver has.
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I would love for you to pull up the stats. All of the stats.
I'm betting that korver beats Burks in shooting percentages (though Burks might beat korver at free throw percentage) since the trade and that's about it.
I would bet that burks scores more, has more assists, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, draws more fouls, and might even have less turnovers. Even if we adjust all those things to a per 36 basis understanding that Burks plays more minutes so it wouldn't be a fair comparison straight up.
I would guess that Burks probably has a better plus minus as well and that his team record since the trade is a greater improvement than the jazz team record has improved since the trade.
I would be curious to know if I'm right, but I'm just guessing. I think I'm probably right about most of those stats/categories.
Also I would argue that cleveland isn't even trying to win and that the jazz have a better system, chemistry, coaching staff, and teammates. But we can throw that out the window in this comparison if ya want.

Oh and Burks is younger, expiring, and we threw in couple picks as well.

I was good with the trade and I still am but I don't think anyone can really declare either side as a winner. Especially not the side of the team that got worse since the trade and of the player that is worse in the majority of the statistics.

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fishonjazz said:
I would love for you to pull up the stats. All of the stats.
I'm betting that korver beats Burks in shooting percentages (though Burks might beat korver at free throw percentage) since the trade and that's about it.
I would bet that burks scores more, has more assists, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, draws more fouls, and might even have less turnovers. Even if we adjust all those things to a per 36 basis understanding that Burks plays more minutes so it wouldn't be a fair comparison straight up.
I would guess that Burks probably has a better plus minus as well and that his team record since the trade is a greater improvement than the jazz team record has improved since the trade.
I would be curious to know if I'm right, but I'm just guessing. I think I'm probably right about most of those stats/categories.
Also I would argue that cleveland isn't even trying to win and that the jazz have a better system, chemistry, coaching staff, and teammates. But we can throw that out the window in this comparison if ya want.

Oh and Burks is younger, expiring, and we threw in couple picks as well.

I was good with the trade and I still am but I don't think anyone can really declare either side as a winner. Especially not the side of the team that got worse since the trade and of the player that is worse in the majority of the statistics.

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Per36 he is scoring 5 pts less per game than he was when he was here... assists turnovers steals and blocks are all basically even. He's getting to the line 3.6 times per 36... less than he was when he was here at 5.1.

He's shooting 33% from the field and 30% from three... a blistering TS% of 44%... down from 54.7% when he was here. Offensive rating of 95 Defensive rating of 115 (the higher it goes the worse it is on defensive rating).

Korver - Per36 is scoring more and rebounding less than AB... doesn't get as many steals or assists, but also doesn't turn the ball over. Korver actually is getting more blocks but it's a negligible number for either guy. The issue is efficiency... Korver is shooting 40% from the field and 37% from three, which is well below his averages on the season... but even while in this "slump" his TS % is 55%, which is league average. ORTG is 102 DRTG is 112... which isn't great but it's roughly twice as good as AB's is.

AB's shooting percentages put him in the the lowest of low bad shooters... Michael Carter Williams is at a 47% TS% just for a reference. So yeah... he's been bad.

Also, Korver may only be good at one thing... but if that thing is super duper important it might trump all the other skills out there... and if he is so good at that thing that he's literally one of the 10 best that ever did it... then that friggin mean something... it isn't a score sheet where you tick boxes and whoever ticks the most boxes is best.

Quibbling with the trade because of AB's inclusion is kind of silly... both guys are shooting poorer than expected... but one guy's bad shooting is still league average while the other guys shooting would land him in China if it continues over the long-term. Both guys numbers likely come up. AB has had a couple good games, but has largely been bad.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Per36 he is scoring 5 pts less per game than he was when he was here... assists turnovers steals and blocks are all basically even. He's getting to the line 3.6 times per 36... less than he was when he was here at 5.1.

He's shooting 33% from the field and 30% from three... a blistering TS% of 44%... down from 54.7% when he was here. Offensive rating of 95 Defensive rating of 115 (the higher it goes the worse it is on defensive rating).

Korver - Per36 is scoring more and rebounding less than AB... doesn't get as many steals or assists, but also doesn't turn the ball over. Korver actually is getting more blocks but it's a negligible number for either guy. The issue is efficiency... Korver is shooting 40% from the field and 37% from three, which is well below his averages on the season... but even while in this "slump" his TS % is 55%, which is league average. ORTG is 102 DRTG is 112... which isn't great but it's roughly twice as good as AB's is.

AB's shooting percentages put him in the the lowest of low bad shooters... Michael Carter Williams is at a 47% TS% just for a reference. So yeah... he's been bad.

Also, Korver may only be good at one thing... but if that thing is super duper important it might trump all the other skills out there... and if he is so good at that thing that he's literally one of the 10 best that ever did it... then that friggin mean something... it isn't a score sheet where you tick boxes and whoever ticks the most boxes is best.

Quibbling with the trade because of AB's inclusion is kind of silly... both guys are shooting poorer than expected... but one guy's bad shooting is still league average while the other guys shooting would land him in China if it continues over the long-term. Both guys numbers likely come up. AB has had a couple good games, but has largely been bad.
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Don't know why you posted ab before the trade vs ab after the trade. The discussion I was proposing was ab post trade vs korver post trade.

Of course Burks numbers would be down on Cleveland vs the jazz. (Same with korver on jazz vs Cleveland. He has to adapt to new teammates, coaches, system etc too) It's a new team and new system and likely a worse team, worse system, with worse coaching and worse teammates and the team isn't trying to win.

So back to the actual discussion of Burks vs korver post trade. According to your numbers korver is scoring more, blocking more shots, and shooting a better percentage.
Burks is rebounding better, assisting better, getting more steals, and getting to the line more.

So korver is better at some stuff and Burks is better at some stuff. Burks is playing for a team wanting to lose with crap teammates, a crap system, and crap coaches. Burks is younger, expiring, and there were 2 picks involved. (Was a great locker room guy to from everything I have heard). Burks team has actually improved in win loss since the trade (much to the dismay if Cavs fans no doubt) and the jazz have gotten worse in the win loss column.

To your point about korver shooting being so important and him being one of the best ever....... What he did in previous years doesn't matter. It's what he is doing now, which isn't much. If he isn't shooting the 3 ball above %40 then he isn't doing much if anything to help the jazz.

Like I said before, I'm cool with the trade but in the sample size we have I don't see how anyone can claim the jazz as the winners so far.

I would be curious to know reach guys plus minus numbers with their new team as well.
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fishonjazz said:
Don't know why you posted ab before the trade vs ab after the trade. The discussion I was proposing was ab post trade vs korver post trade.

Of course Burks numbers would be down on Cleveland vs the jazz. (Same with korver on jazz vs Cleveland. He has to adapt to new teammates, coaches, system etc too) It's a new team and new system and likely a worse team, worse system, with worse coaching and worse teammates and the team isn't trying to win.

So back to the actual discussion of Burks vs korver post trade. According to your numbers korver is scoring more, blocking more shots, and shooting a better percentage.
Burks is rebounding better, assisting better, getting more steals, and getting to the line more.

So korver is better at some stuff and Burks is better at some stuff. Burks is playing for a team wanting to lose with crap teammates, a crap system, and crap coaches. Burks is younger, expiring, and there were 2 picks involved. (Was a great locker room guy to from everything I have heard). Burks team has actually improved in win loss since the trade (much to the dismay if Cavs fans no doubt) and the jazz have gotten worse in the win loss column.

To your point about korver shooting being so important and him being one of the best ever....... What he did in previous years doesn't matter. It's what he is doing now, which isn't much. If he isn't shooting the 3 ball above %40 then he isn't doing much if anything to help the jazz.

Like I said before, I'm cool with the trade but in the sample size we have I don't see how anyone can claim the jazz as the winners so far.

I would be curious to know reach guys plus minus numbers with their new team as well.
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I was trying to show that AB has been playing bad... versus how he was playing here... he’s been worse in Cleveland than he was here.

Offensive rating and defensive rating are measures of plus minus... where Korver has been better than AB. Number posted in previous post.

Korver s career number matter... they tell us his shooting has not been good since coming to Utah... by his standards anyway. By nba standards his slumping numbers are average (we don’t have many average shooters btw). And reputation matters... you think any guy on the court is going to help off him confidently... you think you can stick an inattentive defender on him? He’s not just a good shooter he is a historically good shooter. His haters keep referencing his age... which doesn’t matter if he’s still effective... which he is.

The OP should say Korver is average... he isn’t trash... ABs percentages are god awful and if they continue he will be in China next year.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I was trying to show that AB has been playing bad... versus how he was playing here... he’s been worse in Cleveland than he was here.

Offensive rating and defensive rating are measures of plus minus... where Korver has been better than AB. Number posted in previous post.

Korver s career number matter... they tell us his shooting has not been good since coming to Utah... by his standards anyway. By nba standards his slumping numbers are average (we don’t have many average shooters btw). And reputation matters... you think any guy on the court is going to help off him confidently... you think you can stick an inattentive defender on him? He’s not just a good shooter he is a historically good shooter. His haters keep referencing his age... which doesn’t matter if he’s still effective... which he is.

The OP should say Korver is average... he isn’t trash... ABs percentages are god awful and if they continue he will be in China next year.
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Thanks for trying to show that burks has been worse in Cleveland than he was in Utah. Duh.
Same goes for korver.
You say his age doesn't matter if he is effective which he is. I disagree. He has been ineffective so far with the jazz and the jazz have been worse.
I think that will change however.

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I suppose the best route would be to let both players get acclimated to their new teams. As they get more integrated into the system and their comfort level comes up they will come back to their averages. Then have the discussion. The biggest winner of the trade is without a doubt is neither Cleveland nor Utah, it's Burks. He's getting to play to his strengths and not only have a much longer leash, he doesn't have a leash at all.
 
I agree with Fish. They both bring things to the table. And Korver doesn’t just bring shooting. He brings spacing and potential disarray in opposing defenses.

The Cavs don’t win without Burks’ contribution yesterday, especially with his big and-one plays. They also of course don’t win without those contributions from LN Jnr, and Delly.
 
SoUjazzfan said:
Burks was leaving at the end of the year. We don't use our seconds. Quin didn't trust Burks. We didn't give up ****.
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I keep seeing people say this as if DL was held to gunpoint and was told "Use these assets in the Korver trade or you're stuck with them and have to use them yourself" when having an extra 2nd round pick or a Burks around as pieces to use in another trade later down the road when Exum/Favors become avaiable to move would have been very useful to have.
 
NPC D4617 said:
Actually my main point was that it was a bad move because we traded a 1year deal for a two year deal of trash players. Plus two 2nd round picks. I think I clearly pointed that out. I have been off the Burks band wagon for a long time. I was one of the first to advocate trading him.
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I love it how everyone likes to say, "I was one of the first!" - You're all such geniuses.


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carolinajazz said:
This is carolinajazz....and I disagree with that assessment!
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Korver is fine. He was brought in to do exactly what he did tonight. If you think he came in to completely change this organization you have little to no understanding of the NBA and basketball in general. He's a role player, it's quite simple.
 
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