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LDS Church fined for contributions to Prop 8!! HA!

I appreciate civil discourse, but I would prefer that, rather than simply complementing my identification of some of the underlying issues, posters who oppose homosexuality or homosexual marriage would actually attempt to answer my basic question, which I have now asked twice already, and now for a third time: exactly *why* and *how* are homosexual sex and homosexual relationships harmful to other individuals or to society? This is *the* most basic question. Why dance around it?

It's not going to happen, because there is no secular justification. There are only religious and moral reasons. Since religion operates by revelation rather than reason, and since morals are arbitrarily chosen, neither will provide the type of answer that you seek.
 
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Good points Honz, HE Penny, and One Brow.

I enjoy the intelligent discussion that's going on here. I may just have to sit on the sidelines here and watch the rest of this game as it unravels.

You guys brought up a poster named Beantown, what's his opinion on this issue? I'm assuming it's anti-gay marriage judging by the responses I've read....

I apologize Katie for insulting you. However, I am above tired of the LDS church being thrown under the bus. From ignorant radio people interviewing Boozer (could you imagine what would have happened had he called the "Jews" or "Blacks" in Utah crazy?) to the media reporting the LDS Church on this issue.
 
You guys brought up a poster named Beantown, what's his opinion on this issue? I'm assuming it's anti-gay marriage judging by the responses I've read....

His argument's essential points:

1. Only heterosexual couplings can reproduce
2. Evolution has determined that reproduction can only occur through heterosexual couplings and not through homosexual couplings
3. Therefore heterosexual couplings and homosexual couplings are not "biologically equal." (His term, not mine)
4. The state saying the two are equal would therefore be "stupid."
5. "Science > your personal opinion"

The argument has a number of problems, not the least of which is his limited understanding of both evolutionary processes and the development of human sexuality and gender in the womb.

Sharpshooter at one point had a pretty devastating retort that boiled down to

1. Beantown says homosexuals shouldn't be able to get married because they can't have children.
2. Octogenarian heterosexual couples can't have children.
3. Beantown will make an exception for them because they are heterosexual
4. Beantown is a bigot.
 
His argument's essential points:

1. Only heterosexual couplings can reproduce
2. Evolution has determined that reproduction can only occur through heterosexual couplings and not through homosexual couplings
3. Therefore heterosexual couplings and homosexual couplings are not "biologically equal." (His term, not mine)
4. The state saying the two are equal would therefore be "stupid."
5. "Science > your personal opinion"

The argument has a number of problems, not the least of which is his limited understanding of both evolutionary processes and the development of human sexuality and gender in the womb.

Sharpshooter at one point had a pretty devastating retort that boiled down to

1. Beantown says homosexuals shouldn't be able to get married because they can't have children.
2. Octogenarian heterosexual couples can't have children.
3. Beantown will make an exception for them because they are heterosexual
4. Beantown is a bigot.

Swing and a miss.
 
If you feel I have materially misrepresented your previous statements about homosexuality, evolution, and marriage feel free to correct it beantown.
 
It's not going to happen, because there is no secular justification. There are only religious and moral reasons. Since religion operates by revelation rather than reason, and since morals are arbitrarily chosen, neither will provide the type of answer that you seek.
I tend to agree that there is probably no real reason why gays are supposed to be harmful to society. But I find your conception of morality a bit odd. I don't think morals are arbitrarily chosen; they are based on the social structure of the universe. We can all agree that killing is wrong, simply because other beings have as much right to live as we do. There's nothing arbitrary about it.

That's when you say, "there are only religious and moral reasons" against homosexuality, I would have to disagree and say that there are only religious ones. The supposed "moral reasons" aren't really morality at all, just dogmatic assertions with no basis in real social interaction... like the Bible's sanction of wearing polyester clothing. It's nonsense, there's no moral reason for it, other than that some old book says so (one would think we'd have gotten past the "because I said so" argument for morals... how old are we all, six?). Arbitrary moral rules are not morality at all, because moral rules always require reasons.

But I think you probably know all that already, One Brow, and were probably just speaking a bit too quickly. Pardon me if I seem presumptuous.
 
If you feel I have materially misrepresented your previous statements about homosexuality, evolution, and marriage feel free to correct it beantown.

My view is all about embracing that we are different, and we as a society should not try to force everybody to view people "the same". You cannot compare heterosexual relations and homosexual relations as being the same. Like the saying goes " You can't compare apples to oranges"

We are all different and that's what makes the world and our country great. Our country has specific laws and ways that govern our differences. From our religions, our race's, and our genders. African American and Indians have different backgrounds and therefore there are governmental rights to each of these people. My wife who is part Indian has different governmental rights and benefits that differ from other citizens, like me.

- the basic scientific fact of the relations are merely the backbone of my view. Biologically homosexual and heterosexual relations are complete opposite. But I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS A BAD THING!

-Just like men are different from women. So are heterosexual and homosexuals.

-Homosexual and heterosexual relations have different dynamics and issues within themselves that are unique only to those type of relationships.

-Heterosexuals can create life and usually build families through generations. They pass on genetics and heredity and need to be held responsible and have rights protecting them because of that power. Their relations are the fundamental purpose for our species continuing on and evolving. They deal with different factors from birth control, working family woman, and basically all the dynamics of a man and woman relationship.

-Homosexual relations do not have procreating powers. (not a bad thing). They need rights and protections that focus on the dynamics of same gender relations. The dynamics of gay adoptions, and how two men or woman can have both full rights to those children. The dynamics of a man and man relationship are far different from a man and woman.

-when it comes to divorce there needs to be laws that protect each person. With heterosexual marriages usually the woman gets custody of the children. But what about in a two man homosexual relationship? There needs to be specific laws and rights that help guide these decisions. The dynamics of the relationships cannot be forced into the same laws. It makes no sense.

-This is why I believe homosexual relations need there separate form of union. I think even gay men and lesbian women need separate laws for each of their relations. Because those relationships are still very different and have different dynamics. The name is not whats important but whats important is that all the same rights are offered to all relationships...insurance, children rights..etc...etc..etc.

-the same goes for Polygamous people. If its becomes legal they would need their own separate form of union that would support the dynamics of those relationships.

So again, everyone gets on me for my biological talk. But I am just saying it proves that these relationships are not the same and should be treated for their own unique issues that arise in these relationships. So lets embrace our differences and not try and create a county where everyone needs to be viewed the same. There is nothing wrong with viewing and loving our differences.
 
My view is all about embracing that we are different, and we as a society should not try to force everybody to view people "the same". You cannot compare heterosexual relations and homosexual relations as being the same. Like the saying goes " You can't compare apples to oranges"

We are all different and that's what makes the world and our country great. Our country has specific laws and ways that govern our differences. From our religions, our race's, and our genders. African American and Indians have different backgrounds and therefore there are governmental rights to each of these people. My wife who is part Indian has different governmental rights and benefits that differ from other citizens, like me.

- the basic scientific fact of the relations are merely the backbone of my view. Biologically homosexual and heterosexual relations are complete opposite. But I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS A BAD THING!

-Just like men are different from women. So are heterosexual and homosexuals.

-Homosexual and heterosexual relations have different dynamics and issues within themselves that are unique only to those type of relationships.

-Heterosexuals can create life and usually build families through generations. They pass on genetics and heredity and need to be held responsible and have rights protecting them because of that power. Their relations are the fundamental purpose for our species continuing on and evolving. They deal with different factors from birth control, working family woman, and basically all the dynamics of a man and woman relationship.

-Homosexual relations do not have procreating powers. (not a bad thing). They need rights and protections that focus on the dynamics of same gender relations. The dynamics of gay adoptions, and how two men or woman can have both full rights to those children. The dynamics of a man and man relationship are far different from a man and woman.

-when it comes to divorce there needs to be laws that protect each person. With heterosexual marriages usually the woman gets custody of the children. But what about in a two man homosexual relationship? There needs to be specific laws and rights that help guide these decisions. The dynamics of the relationships cannot be forced into the same laws. It makes no sense.

-This is why I believe homosexual relations need there separate form of union. I think even gay men and lesbian women need separate laws for each of their relations. Because those relationships are still very different and have different dynamics. The name is not whats important but whats important is that all the same rights are offered to all relationships...insurance, children rights..etc...etc..etc.

-the same goes for Polygamous people. If its becomes legal they would need their own separate form of union that would support the dynamics of those relationships.

So again, everyone gets on me for my biological talk. But I am just saying it proves that these relationships are not the same and should be treated for their own unique issues that arise in these relationships. So lets embrace our differences and not try and create a county where everyone needs to be viewed the same. There is nothing wrong with viewing and loving our differences.

I'm just waking up, so I'm not going to address everything you've written, but... You do understand that there actually are NOT laws that define the nature of our relationships. Women do not get custody of children based on some law that they get custody, it is based on the interests of the children and it just so happens that in the majority of cases the court decides they are better with their mother.

What would the law regarding heterosexual relationships be compared to the law pertaining to homosexual relationships? You're saying we need different laws for each, yet as far as I know there are currently no laws describing what roles each partner plays within a relationship.

Reading your post before my first cup of coffee made my head literally hurt.
 
What would the law regarding heterosexual relationships be compared to the law pertaining to homosexual relationships? You're saying we need different laws for each, yet as far as I know there are currently no laws describing what roles each partner plays within a relationship.

Its not about laws defining the roles of a relationship. Its laws to help protect rights of each individual in the relationship, and homosexual relations and heterosexual relations each have different unique dynamics that need protecting.
 
So beantown, would you be for calling homosexual relationships "marriage" if the adoption and divorce codes were modified to accomodate whatever it is you want?
 
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Its not about laws defining the roles of a relationship. Its laws to help protect rights of each individual in the relationship, and homosexual relations and heterosexual relations each have different unique dynamics that need protecting.

I guess I'm slow, I can't really think of special rights that people need protected within a relationship based on their sexual orientation. I'm also not aware that men have special rights protected vs women in a heterosexual relationship. Can you provide a few specifics?
 
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