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LDS Church fined for contributions to Prop 8!! HA!

Oh dear God, Gameface. You know, I sat here reading you post, thinking: this is a good post. This is such a good post, that after I'm done reading it, I'm going to quote it and simply say, "Good post." But you just had to go and ruin things for me there at the end, didn't you....

Yeah, I guess so. But I do think that the atrocities that have taken place in Nazi Germany and the even greater atrocities that took place in China and the Soviet Union come from the basic idea that individuals exist to serve society or state or community. I think it is very important to hold the individual as the primary reason for having a society, state and community, and that the interests of the individual must be the dominating factor in establishing morality, law and rights.

How is it, do you suppose, that otherwise normal people went along with things in Nazi Germany, Communist China and the Soviet Union? This isn't ancient history, carried out by people whom we can write off as barbarians.
 
Of course, the atrocities of Nazi Germany are really totally irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage. We have been without gay marriage, as a nation, from the outset; yet we have never marched homosexuals into gas chambers.
 
Of course, the atrocities of Nazi Germany are really totally irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage. We have been without gay marriage, as a nation, from the outset; yet we have never marched homosexuals into gas chambers.

True, but Germany never marched Jews into gas chambers until that time when they did. While it's a shaky argument to use comparisons to Nazi Germany in practically any debate(though it's very common - see Godwin's Law), Gameface's point wasn't that the US is on it's way towards systematic murder of homosexuals. His point is that the idea that the rights of the individual exist only so far as they serve the state, rather than the other way around, is flawed.
 
Of course, the atrocities of Nazi Germany are really totally irrelevant to the issue of gay marriage. We have been without gay marriage, as a nation, from the outset; yet we have never marched homosexuals into gas chambers.

I was attacking the rather ridiculous argument put forward by Beantown that because procreation is good for society we allow heterosexual people to get married, and because homosexual relationships cannot produce offspring they should be denied the ability to marry. That argument is based on the idea that your freedoms are given to you based on what benefit you having that freedom provides for society. If one can justify taking away personal freedom using that argument I don't see why taking away an individual's life, for the good of society, follows that far behind.
 
Dude, it's just that Katie's constant playing the victim and dramatizations are getting old. She already lied in the thread title and put some smug comment of "ha." Do you expect me to prance around and agree and say, "Oh, I'm so sorry for you. I feel so bad. Those Mormons are the root of all evil. Let's go watch a movie!" I don't care if Katie is a trans, I really don't. But I don't have to hear it every two seconds.

I'm anticipating a response from Katie on this. Waiting.... Waiting.... Waiting....

Would you like to contradict yourself any further?

For the record, I didn't lie about anything. The fine was a direct result of the contributions made by the LDS church to Prop 8. Like I have been saying from the beginning there is FAR more to this story. This is only the beginning. Also the LDS church lied initially about making any contributions. The following article has some more information. Much of this is detailed in "8: The Mormon Proposition".

Mormons Found Guilty on 13 Counts of Prop 8 Malfeasance, Fined by FPPC
Posted on 11 June 2010

By Dan Aiello
California Progress Report

On Wednesday, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints became the first religious organization to be fined for political malfeasance, according to Californians Against Hate (CAH), the non-profit organization that filed the complaint after voters narrowly approved the anti-marriage equality initiative, proposition 8, November, 2008.

Leaders of the Mormon Church "failed to timely report making late non-monetary contributions" to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign, an amount totaling $36,928, according to the June 10, 2010 finding by California's Fair Political Practices Commission (FPPC), announced at the commission's meeting Wednesday in Sacramento. The commission's enforcement included levying a 15% punitive fine against the LDS organization, totaling $5,539 dollars.

The late reporting charges were just one part of the complaint CAH filed November 13, 2008, shortly after the anti-marriage equality initiative passed, and followed-up with a supplemental complaint filed March 18, 2009, as more information became public.

"[The fine] seems a little light since [the FPPC] only looked at $36,000 of their contributions, but it's also historic because no church has ever been fined for illegal political activity in California before," said Fred Karger, CAH founder. "In fact, it's unprecedented."

LDS spokesperson, Kim Farah, declined comment, referring instead to a public statement at the religious organization's website which said Mormons "Mistakenly overlooked the daily reporting process" during the last two weeks of the campaign.

"When we accused them of contributing more money [than was reported], they stated publicly that our claims were false, but that turned out to be a lie - one of many," said Karger, who was in Sacramento attending the FPPC meeting to make sure the fine was assessed. "It's unbelievable, their arrogance, blatantly violating California election laws and lieing repeatedly about their involvement in prop 8.

According to CAH, a spokesman for the Mormon Church, Don Eaton, said in an interview with KGO-TV (ABC San Francisco) prior to the election, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints put zero money in this.”

It was eventually learned that the Mormon Church coordinated contributions amounting to more than half of the $45 million dollar Yes on Prop 8 campaign, as well as contributing non-monetarily to the campaign by sending Mormon campaign volunteers through the Church's "mission" program and offering use of church ward (parish) properties throughout the state.

Karger noted that Mormon leadership has significant influence in Utah. Political scientists have referred to Utah's form of government as a "Theo-Democracy," because of the church's influence over state politics and legislation. "No legislation passes without the approval of the Church leadership," said Will Carlson of Equality Utah, a group that has been unsuccessful in passing statewide protection from discrimination based on sexual orientation. Mormons active in the faith constitute approximately 75% of the Utah legislature and, because the Mormon church requires members to adhere to the wishes of LDS leadership or face excommunication, church leadership is able to exert significant influence over Utah politics.

The LDS exerts influence on social issues in Utah's neighboring states, as well, creating what is known politically as "The Mormon Corridor," from Eastern California to Colorado, Idaho to Arizona.

The complaint by Karger and CAH resulted in the FPPC's 19-month investigation, leading to today's decision. "They got off easy," said Karger, "but this is only one state. They were involved in all 30 state [marriage] battles. This is just the beginning."

Along with the complaint filed in California, Karger and CAH also filed a complaint "against the Mormon's front organization, NOM [National Organization for Marriage]," Karger said. Maine's Fair Political Practices Commission "voted 3-2 to investigate them and to turn over their donor names which they're required to by law," said Karger. "They contributed another $2 million dollars in that campaign."

NOM is under investigation in the state of Maine for possible money laundering and failing to file the required campaign reports for that state’s Question 1 campaign. Question 1 took away gay marriage in Maine just last November.

The Maine investigation is ongoing.

https://www.californiaprogressreport.com/site/?q=node/7845
 
Could you explain, then, how you think a denial of gay marriage in the current (or posit a future one, if you like) political climate might lead to a situation in which the United States decides to exterminate gay people?

My point wasn't that Gameface, in his overall argument, was wrong -- I liked his overall argument. But it is beyond preposterous to introduce the NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY into this discussion. To even entertain the notion as a slippery slope argument would require first that we accept his initial assumption -- namely that societies that value the society as a whole over the individual must necessarily lead to human rights violations -- and I don't take that as a given at all.

Gameface said:
If one can justify taking away personal freedom using that argument I don't see why taking away an individual's life, for the good of society, follows that far behind.

You've got to first establish that failing to provide people with a "right" (for lack of a better word) that they have never previously enjoyed in this society is the same thing as "taking away freedoms."

We need to take a step back, I think, remove the Nazi talk from the discussion, and get a bit more reasonable. Those who would deny gays the right to marry are not comparable to THE NATIONAL SOCIALIST PARTY. I'm sorry. They just aren't.
 
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I like pizza. But if I live to be a thousand years old, I'm never going to like pizza with mushrooms on it. It's not emotional, intellectual, or spiritual. I can't explain the science of it, but I know I don't like it, and I'll never like it. That said, I've seen people eat mushroom pizza and really like it. I have friends who like it. And I fully respect their right to eat, and like, pizza with mushrooms on it. But even now, whenever I see someone eat pizza with mushrooms on it, I can't for the life of me understand how they like it. We're just not the same. Except for the fact we both like pizza.
 
This thread, and countless others like it, has gone on for HOW long? How many people have changed their minds because of it? I count a grand total of zero. And people are still claiming that advertising dollars are really what swayed the vote in California one way or another?
 
I like pizza. But if I live to be a thousand years old, I'm never going to like pizza with mushrooms on it. It's not emotional, intellectual, or spiritual. I can't explain the science of it, but I know I don't like it, and I'll never like it. That said, I've seen people eat mushroom pizza and really like it. I have friends who like it. And I fully respect their right to eat, and like, pizza with mushrooms on it. But even now, whenever I see someone eat pizza with mushrooms on it, I can't for the life of me understand how they like it. We're just not the same. Except for the fact we both like pizza.

Lace that pizza with some estrogen for a couple of years and you'll be into mushrooms in no time.
 
This thread, and countless others like it, has gone on for HOW long? How many people have changed their minds because of it? I count a grand total of zero. And people are still claiming that advertising dollars are really what swayed the vote in California one way or another?

well then at least this proves it probably wasn't message board posts that swayed the vote, right?
 
This thread, and countless others like it, has gone on for HOW long? How many people have changed their minds because of it? I count a grand total of zero. And people are still claiming that advertising dollars are really what swayed the vote in California one way or another?
Perhaps you have not changed your mind, my son, but that is not indictive for the rest of the nation, which is progessively becoming pro-homosexual.

This, of course, is a thorn in my crown. Look, here's the thing: homosexuals exist, sure. I made them. They are attracted to the same gender, and they can't do a damn thing about it. But at the same time, I also REALLY dislike them. I annihilate ****ing CITIES because of them. It's like... they don't do anything bad to me or you necessarily, but... man, how do I describe it. I don't know, it's just gross, lol.
 
colton said:
This thread, and countless others like it, has gone on for HOW long? How many people have changed their minds because of it? I count a grand total of zero. And people are still claiming that advertising dollars are really what swayed the vote in California one way or another?

Probably didn't change opinions, but ad campaigns do get out the vote. The Yes on 8 campaign had two highly effective ads: Gavin's in your face, "whether you like it or not" spot and the one re: education (i.e. that elementary teachers would be forced, legally to include same-sex relationships in their teaching materials). As a CA resident, I can definitely tell you Pro-8 supporters became much more vocal and active after those two ads started to run.

Apathy causes many voters to stay home. The recent primary election here in CA proves that: incredibly low turn-out. But put a hot-topic item on the ballot, or create enough adveritsing around an issue - like the hidden taxes in one of the propositions that came up last time, and you'll get people to the polls.

That's why the GLBT community did not pursue a ballot intiative for the Fall election in CA this year. Sure, we'll be voting on a new governator (WhitBay or Moonbeam), but there's just not the same level of interest that there will be when another presidential election rolls around. Low turnout always favors conservative candidates and issues. But same-sex marriage needs high turnout from the young electorate to pass.
 
Top three reasons some of mankind disapproves of homosexuality:

1. I told them to.
2. It's gross.
3. ?

These reasons are LEGIT, and I'm not even sure why we are having this argument.
 
Top three reasons some of mankind disapproves of homosexuality:

1. I told them to.
2. It's gross.
3. ?

These reasons are LEGIT, and I'm not even sure why we are having this argument.

Why didn't you give the power of procreation to homosexuals?
 
Just to let you know, I'm probably the resident shorty.

5'5" to let y'all know.

I'd still probably kick all y'alls *** in basketball, though.
 
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