Looking for genuine discourse re:Jay-Z/NBA

[PearlWatson]

Remember that PM you sent me?

Don't bother responding to my PM. I don't need a response any more.

I never got one

Strange

Bizarre.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

This is a direct jab at something I said, and you have my stance incorrect as to person3 in your scenario. When I changed your scenario to what I saw it as you took offense to it. Keep in mind there were zero jabs from me in your direction. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Both of the bold parts are direct jabs at what you think is wrong about my approach to the topic and what I feel is an important point in the discussion.
You attempt to completely dismiss it while stating my stance incorrectly at the same time. You seem to have zero interest in actually understanding what I am getting at, but say how I go about it is all wrong...... because part of what I say has to do with how we go about it? How hypocritical is that.



[size/HUGE] ego [/size] <--- Here's your link



Strange

I'm done with you on this.
Respond if you want to, but don't expect a response after that. I'm 50/50 on how entertaining dragging this out more will be.

dude, let me promise you something... you're not person3. That's the reason I tried (a few times) to address my question as "serious questions".... they were aimed at everybody. Your position isn't accurately conveyed because I wasn't trying to convey it. Are there some resemblances between your position and person3? Yes.

The whole question of "imported knowledge or values" versus "in situ knowledge or values" is one that is at the very core of my past research. And, I felt it was a decent question to ask since most of the thread was dedicated to people giving general judgments rather than anything personally felt, which I felt was distracting the conversation. And, if someone can point out what is causing distraction, then maybe it can be dealt with. It was an honest attempt at engagement. Perhaps this just isn't my place.

 

[♪alt13]

Just because someone wrote an essay does not automatically make their views reflective of the attitudes of our society. I get the history and it lends me more patience when a black person holds racially divisive attitudes but that does not mean that I will pretend that it is ok. What seems to be missing from the conversation here is where we are/should be headed as a society and how to get there. The skeletons in our collective closet should be used to understand our present but our goals and aspirations should be used to shape our standards.

If Jay Z does in fact espouse this nonsense then no I would not equate it with Sterlings remarks but I would be quick to condemn it as crazy stupid and wrong. There is no room in our future for the bigotry of our past imo.

There's a difference between "someone wrote an essay" and seeing essays on a regular basis.

However, perhaps you mean essays are not a sufficient response. What would be sufficient response?

Must you always crop a quote to frame an argument you would like to have? I am not interested in tallying essays with you. Are you going to address the larger theme of my post?

The larger theme being that black people are not as severely criticized as white people when using racially charged language? That's already been covered in this thread. Racially charged language has more meaning when it goes with the flow of a racially biased society, instead of against that flow, and therefore deserves a larger response. In most circumstances, the proper response to speech is better speech; in a few circumstances, words have more power than just being words.

Are you capable of anything other than regurgitating the same holier than thou liberal douche bull **** mantra? Are you capable of finding motivation in anything other than guilt or the desire that other people should feel as pathetic as you do? I know that you are usually on Ax to grind auto pilot so I will try to forgive you this one last time for attributing to me an opinion that you wish to rail against.

Where did I even hint that that a larger response was not appropriate?

 

[One Brow]

You are a caricature of the left, so you must be having an out of body experience.

More likely you have formed a caricature of the left, and projected it onto me.

 

[One Brow]

Where did I even hint that that a larger response was not appropriate?

I must have misunderstood the point of your posts. I do try to keep that in mind when I formulate responses (hence the occasional question mark). It would be more constructive if, instead of berating what you think my personal tendencies are, you instead point out the difference between what you meant when you posted and what you read in my response. What did you mean as the larger theme?

 

[♪alt13]

More likely you have formed a caricature of the left, and projected it onto me.

OR... you have formed a caricature of the left and do your damnedest to emulate it.

 

[One Brow]

OR... you have formed a caricature of the left and do your damnedest to emulate it.

I missed the part of that post that clarified the larger issue I overlooked.

 

[RobDMB]

First: One Brow quoted the posts in question. I stand by them. I was not directing hostility towards you but towards the ideas you expressed. And those ideas are, and always will be, patently offensive. I respect your right to have an opinion. I also respect my own right to tell you that the opinion you hold is racist and vile.

Okay, so the intent of your posts was misunderstood by me. You're an intelligent person, I'm sure you can see how I could make the conclusion that you were directing your criticism at me rather than at my remarks.

Can we agree on the point that no one LIKES to be called a racist? Whether it's latent or not, when you label someone (or their comments) as racist you're going to get a defensive reaction. Judging from the conversation in this thread, every time that gets thrown around the fences go up and the discussion stops. I felt like that was my reaction to your initial posts.

Second: Have you been on this board in the last ten years? Of course I was dismissive.

I have been on these boards for some years, however I have not focused much of my attention on individual posters. I read conversations, but rarely associate posts/attitudes with specific people. I'm just not that engaged in the community I guess. In my case, your reputation did not serve you in either direction, bad or good. I took your posts at face value because I had no other context.

Third: I continue to stand by my statements that what you've described here as stale attempts at being witty, in larger context of what you were posting, very clearly indicated latent racial biases. I don't think there's any level of freshman-level linguistic analysis that wouldn't come to that conclusion. I'm sorry, but I'm not shakeable on that issue. I do not feel any need to apologize for calling you out on it. I, like One Brow, 100% believe you that you did not intend to post in a racially provocative manner. I also believe that virtually everyone who does so doesn't understand the full import of what they are doing.

Agree to disagree then. You are welcome to hold your opinion on the matter. At least now I understand specifically your criticism.

OB's description of white privilege above is spot on.

Look, I have had feelings in the past related to feeling like being white was a disadvantage. I remember very well applying to law schools and receiving a very high score on my LSATs. A roommate of mine, who happened to be a second generation immigrant of North African descent, received an identical LSAT score. We went to the same high-end private college, we had the same standardized test scores, we had nearly identical GPAs (I think he was .02 higher, which is essentially one letter grade in a single class over four years) and we were even in the same major. Long story short: He went to Harvard, I went to Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt is a very good school, but Harvard is Harvard. At 20 years old, I distinctly remember feeling that this was unfair. I even spent significant amounts of time trolling websites like lawschoolnumbers.com and entering the user provided data into excel spreadsheets so that I could do regression analysis on various schools to determine just how many LSAT points various schools impliedly "gave" you for being a minority (if you're curious, the numbers were large except at UNC-Chapel Hill, where it was actually a disadvantage). The point here is that I went deep on this issue.

My old roommate has had a wonderful career, he's even worked for the NBAPA and is one of my sources for inside the league gossip. But the guy had a hell of a time in Boston and dealt with more police incidents in three years than I or anyone in my family have dealt with during their entire lives combined. I know he's just a regular guy, but for some reason he kept getting stopped, searched, questioned, etc. In speaking with him, it became apparent that these problems persisted basically everywhere he lived that wasn't his original college in suburban Atlanta. I've also gotten acquainted over time with his family situation and seen how, honestly, everything is just harder when you're an immigrant and a minority.

Ten years down the line, I can honestly say that he deserved it and I didn't. It's questionable whether I even deserved to go to Vanderbilt. In some sense, I always treated a good education as my birthright, and lo and behold it happened despite virtually every decision I made that could have derailed it. The assumption was always that everything was going to work out. That's a thing I recognize that I could get away with because there weren't any structural obstacles for me personally.

Understanding white privilege, in some respect, requires trying to conceptualize what your life would have been like under totally different circumstances. It's an exercise in empathy, and I'm ashamed to say that I wasn't capable of that at 18, 19, 20 years old. I spent a lot of time in the intervening years involved in a charity educational program in inner city schools in Atlanta and Nashville. Those schools were primarily poor and black. That was my period of time spent even observing other people dealing with their own structural burdens, even at the basic level of feeling like school for them was handled as if it was child prison. The assumption was never that these kids would succeed. As a result, yes I find it patently offensive when people complain about some level of reverse racism. I see the evil in myself from a decade ago examining a single data point that measured a solitary result and acting like there is some equivalence versus and entire lifetime and pre-lifetime of systemic harm. It's like trying to learn to swim when someone keeps pushing you under. Telling that aquatic violence victim that learning to swim sucks because you keep getting water up your nose is bound to induce rage.

This got overlong, rambly and kind of personal, sorry about that. I'll go back to work now. Everyone should stop being racist.

This is very insightful. Thank you for sharing. Self-introspection is something that a lot of people in our country are not very good at. Your experience and analogy help me to clarify the issues you are addressing. I can see how the concept of reverse racism is offensive to you.

I am of the opinion that if we want to slow down racism that all of us need to be accountable with contextual adjustment. Of course someone like Donald Sterling needs to have consequences similar to the depth of his problem. He has a considerable amount of influence and power. His previous incidents with housing discrimination and other things are further proof that he needed to have some consequences. I think that criticism/punishment should match the context of the comments/crime. I do not have enough experience or knowledge to divy out those things, but I believe that appropriate people could do that. However, I do not think that going the other direction on the continuum is helpful. Racist actions from a hateful white person does not, in my opinion, justify racist attitudes from a black person. I understand why that would make them angry, but I don't think it should be used as an impetus to perpetuate racism. I don't know if that is a clear explanation of what I think, but it's an attempt. If we, as a national community, want to improve racism within our midst, we need to stop making excuses and start being the answer. We need to identify our own bias, and work to correct it.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

dude, let me promise you something... you're not person3. That's the reason I tried (a few times) to address my question as "serious questions".... they were aimed at everybody. Your position isn't accurately conveyed because I wasn't trying to convey it. Are there some resemblances between your position and person3? Yes.

The whole question of "imported knowledge or values" versus "in situ knowledge or values" is one that is at the very core of my past research. And, I felt it was a decent question to ask since most of the thread was dedicated to people giving general judgments rather than anything personally felt, which I felt was distracting the conversation. And, if someone can point out what is causing distraction, then maybe it can be dealt with. It was an honest attempt at engagement. Perhaps this just isn't my place.

Ok, good to know. By all appearances you were taking what I said and person3 ing me. Even knowing that was not your intent, that's what it appears to be, fyi.
I believe you though. Tough to tell when the sarcasm button is on or off in this place.

I tell you, most of this is both of us think way differently and almost speak different languages, so to speak. honest opinion on the continuous rounds that happen.

I'll go back and give input on the questions later today if I can with this in mind.

 

[One Brow]

Can we agree on the point that no one LIKES to be called a racist? Whether it's latent or not, when you label someone (or their comments) as racist you're going to get a defensive reaction.

Do you have a way of telling people they are racist that does not provoke a defensive reaction? I know many, many people who would love to know about one. Because, if you don't, then avoiding the defensive reaction equates to the racism going unchallenged. Is that your preference?

Judging from the conversation in this thread, every time that gets thrown around the fences go up and the discussion stops. I felt like that was my reaction to your initial posts.

The one who threatened to stop discussion was you.

Agree to disagree then. You are welcome to hold your opinion on the matter. At least now I understand specifically your criticism.

The notion of "agree to disagree" carries with it the idea that both positions are sound, civilized, and worth holding. The notion that "reverse racism" exists is not sound, not civilized, and not worth holding.

I am of the opinion that if we want to slow down racism that all of us need to be accountable with contextual adjustment.

Being accountable requires the presence of one who holds us to account. Who do you have in our life to hold you to account on this issue?

Racist actions from a hateful white person does not, in my opinion, justify racist attitudes from a black person.

Notice that, even in your construction here, the white person makes racist actions as a basic reality (and from what you said earlier, should not be called out on them, lest they get defensive), while the black person needs to justify their racist attitudes. That's quite an interest contrast of standards. Please don't defend yourself on them, rather, ask yourself why you chose that way to word things.

I understand why that would make them angry, but I don't think it should be used as an impetus to perpetuate racism. I don't know if that is a clear explanation of what I think, but it's an attempt.

The anger of black people over racial injustice, and their expressions that derive from it, are not the principal sustenance of racism in this country.

We need to identify our own bias, and work to correct it.

I agree heartily.

 

[One Brow]

What seems to be missing from the conversation here is where we are/should be headed as a society and how to get there. The skeletons in our collective closet should be used to understand our present but our goals and aspirations should be used to shape our standards.

If Jay Z does in fact espouse this nonsense then no I would not equate it with Sterlings remarks but I would be quick to condemn it as crazy stupid and wrong. There is no room in our future for the bigotry of our past imo.

Since heyhey seems to be much more quick to criticize my missing the bigger point than to pointing out what it is, I'll have to guess around.

Perhaps this is his point; that he wants some grand way forward that will rid us of this demon. My response is that each of us is the way forward. When the source of a problem is human cognitive short-cutting, the answer can only be found in subverting the short-cutting, and that can only be one person at a time. Each person needs to accept responsibility for changing his mental tricks, or adapting for them when might be coming into play.

As an instructor in a class room, it's on me to recognize my initial tendency is to treat some students differently based on their appearance, word usage, gender, mannerisms, etc., and that these tendencies are fundamentally unfair. When i am annoyed by a student, it's my job to take a step back and ask if the same behavior would annoy me from a different student. When I am pleased by a student response, the same thing applies.

Are you capable of finding motivation in anything other than guilt or the desire that other people should feel as pathetic as you do?

Here's n interesting notion; that my positions make me feel pathetic. See, I find them empowering. Knowing what you are, and why you are that way, is the best road to personal strength and power. Perhaps heyhey doesn't see how I can find my positions empowering, but that is a lack in his vision, not my take on the issue.

 

[RobDMB]

Do you have a way of telling people they are racist that does not provoke a defensive reaction? I know many, many people who would love to know about one. Because, if you don't, then avoiding the defensive reaction equates to the racism going unchallenged. Is that your preference?

No I do not. But if you're going to make the accusation, perhaps giving it some context might quell the defensive reaction a little. So let's challenge it, but attempt to keep accompanying malice to a minimum.

The one who threatened to stop discussion was you.

And I believe that I acknowledged that in the above post from where you are quoting me now.

The notion of "agree to disagree" carries with it the idea that both positions are sound, civilized, and worth holding. The notion that "reverse racism" exists is not sound, not civilized, and not worth holding.

My use of "agree to disagree" was not in regards to reverse racism.

It was in reference to the "music" comment from earlier in the thread. Kicky has commented that I was latently racist in writing the way I did, whereas I have said that I was simply conveying my dislike of rap. If you knew me, and we were having this conversation face to face, my use of quotation marks would have come through... I think. Again, my dislike of rap has nothing to do with the color of the rapper, but in the songs themselves. Kicky is certainly free to make his conclusion, and I think I can see what he means about the way it was written, but I still contest that my dislike of rap is not a cultural/racial issue.

Being accountable requires the presence of one who holds us to account. Who do you have in our life to hold you to account on this issue?

No one holds me accountable, per se. However I believe that we can hold ourselves accountable to weed out our own racist thoughts and actions. A person with some self-awareness is capable of doing that I think. Consciously trying to be empathetic and fair to your neighbors seems like a good place to start. Then work up from there.

Notice that, even in your construction here, the white person makes racist actions as a basic reality (and from what you said earlier, should not be called out on them, lest they get defensive), while the black person needs to justify their racist attitudes. That's quite an interest contrast of standards. Please don't defend yourself on them, rather, ask yourself why you chose that way to word things.

If I had said it like this: Racist actions from a hateful black person does not, in my opinion, justify racist attitudes from a white person. I believe it would also work that way, but If I say it that way I would be championing reverse racism, wouldn't I? I don't think white people should justify racism by citing racist black people either. Would that have been a better way to say it in your eyes? I am trying to say that racism should not perpetuate racism, no matter the source.

The anger of black people over racial injustice, and their expressions that derive from it, are not the principal sustenance of racism in this country.

Nor did I claim that it was. We have several hundred years of historical context that drives it. I am not trying to blame all of perpetual racism on black people; both sides hold blame for perpetuating it. I understand that the ratio is not equal, I get it.

My question to you is this: If my two sons (ages 6 and 4) are fighting, and have been constantly for several hours, who holds the blame for continuing to fight? I know it's not a perfect analogy, but that is my thought on the subject.

I agree heartily.

Thank you.