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Mandatory education at 3 years age

heyhey said:
What I bolded in particular makes me have less respect for you. ****** lovers, *******, and apostates we just don't hate them enough anymore.
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Then you clearly failed to read all the way thru. I said there are some positives and negatives in that list. I'd personally consider all three of the bolded to be positives.

But you want to soap box so have at it. As for your respect, seeing as how you jump the gun I don't really want it anyways.
 
please give some objective reasons why USA would even be considered greatest country on Earth.
 
AKMVP said:
please give some objective reasons why USA would even be considered greatest country on Earth.
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Right now? It isn't. Why waste my time convincing you of my own personal opinion. I wouldn't demand that an Australian defend their thinking that Australia is the best.

Damn man...
 
heyhey said:
Before we move on to this ridiculously authoritarian plan of yours I want you(or stoked) to provide any reasonable evidence for your claim that there are more "bad parents". The kids(and I'm not even talking about my own which would be biased)today are more reasonable and better behaved. Fathers in particular are way more attentive and likely to actually be in the kids life than when I was a kid. My parents were considered decent parents back then but would be considered **** parents by todays standards.
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I agree parenting has gotten better in some regard. There have always been a mixture of "good" and "bad" parents. The difference is parents used to take responsibility for their kids. Kids behavior largely stays the same (although with the internet kids are smarter and learn more at an early age, both good and bad). However, I do think there has been a societal shift towards parents wanting schools to be responsible for their kids entire education. It was not that way when I was growing up. In addition to being taught to read and do math early on by my parents, they also demanded respect for them and society. When kids miss class they want the school to fix it. I had a brother that started missing class in high school, and when my parents found out my mom sat with him in all of his classes for a week (she took work off to do it too). He never missed again. I think this is the part that has eroded. I think there was more trouble in the past as we didn't have the helicopter parents of today. So, yes, kids had more opportunity to get into trouble, but that is how we learn. I learned more about society due to the freedom I had as a child. I would walk miles to school at age 6. At 8 I would ride my bike to the mall, go to the waterpark or skiing at a young age with friends on the bus, and with that trust and respect from my parents, I learned how to act away from my parents in society. That does not happen anymore.

Regardless, the system has been broken for a long time. And knowing many parents do not get involved (as educators know first hand), we need to force a solution that will help us rise up as a nation. I honestly feel that if parents had to pay when their kids didn't attend, or structuring an incentive system where you go to schools based on test scores/attendance, it might help. Many of these kids are too dumb to realize what they are losing out on by not taking advantage of free education. Others live in areas where the education provided is in adequate.
 
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fishonjazz said:
Is there more divorce (single parent families) today?

Definitely seems like both parents must work nowadays to make ends meet than in the past
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I think the whole single parent families thing plays a larger role than a lot of people are willing to admit. Parenting is at the very least, a 2 person job. Can it be done with less? Yes, but it's much more difficult, for the parent and the child.

I think Jazzgasm is hitting it on the head when it comes to parenting kids and the responsibilities thing. It seems like we've gotten better at some things, and worse at others. IMO, there are just too many parents who don't push their kids. They let them do the bare minimum and think that they'll just be ok from there.
 
Stoked said:
Then you clearly failed to read all the way thru. I said there are some positives and negatives in that list. I'd personally consider all three of the bolded to be positives.

But you want to soap box so have at it. As for your respect, seeing as how you jump the gun I don't really want it anyways.
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Fair enough. In all honesty I did read your post quickly and my blood was boiling before I got half way through.

Also in all honesty I am a father in an unmarried household. I have been with the same woman for 13 years we have a stable home and we refuse to put our children into day care. My daughter has never had anything other than top grades in her schooling. Do I fall into the negative group then? What is it that my children are lacking for because we have not wasted thousands on something we deem unnecessary? What is it that my children are lacking for because I see no need to have a license to love the person I do?

Your entire list is comprised of your own subjective biases. None of those things whether you deem them to be positive or negative is a reasonable measure of quality parenting. The way you interpret information matters. A married father that beats his kids is not a good parent and the mother that leaves his *** the first time it happens is doing the right thing. If she stays she ends up in your positive column if she leaves she ends up in your negative column.
 
heyhey said:
Fair enough. In all honesty I did read your post quickly and my blood was boiling before I got half way through.

Also in all honesty I am a father in an unmarried household. I have been with the same woman for 13 years we have a stable home and we refuse to put our children into day care. My daughter has never had anything other than top grades in her schooling. Do I fall into the negative group then? What is it that my children are lacking for because we have not wasted thousands on something we deem unnecessary? What is it that my children are lacking for because I see no need to have a license to love the person I do?

Your entire list is comprised of your own subjective biases. None of those things whether you deem them to be positive or negative is a reasonable measure of quality parenting. The way you interpret information matters. A married father that beats his kids is not a good parent and the mother that leaves his *** the first time it happens is doing the right thing. If she stays she ends up in your positive column if she leaves she ends up in your negative column.
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That list was changing situations that have changed the dynamic of the traditional family. They have all affected the traditional family. Some in a positive way and some in a negative way (original list) Yes that is my opinion, no argument there.

Edit: OK Hey hey here we go a little more.

There is so much more to a family than married or the color of their skin. Who are they as individual people? Faith? Income? Emotional make up? Differences and how they are dealt with between parents and kids? I do not know enough about you and your fmaily to even want to give an uninformed guess.
 
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Stoked said:
That list was changing situations that have changed the dynamic of the traditional family. Some for the better and some for the worse, generally speakign of course.

If I was focusing on any particular family, yours included, I would have to look at far more than if you actually got married or not.
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I understand that you were not focusing on any single family. You have made the argument that parenting is less adequate today than it used to be. You have connected that to the "changing dynamic of the traditional family". I wholly reject this idea in part due to the evidence of children increasingly making better decisions and my own anecdotal evidence that children really are better people than they were when I was a kid.

I think 20/30 years ago a woman would have been more likely to have stayed with an abusive man due to societal pressures of maintaining the "traditional family". Being a single mom would be hard and I don't think it is ideal but I also recognize that many of those children would be in a much worse household if she was still married.

Marriage isn't bad but I do think that many people that get divorced do so for good reason even if they choose not to share those reasons with the world. If anything the liberalization of the traditional family has enhanced the well being of children in this country.
 
heyhey said:
I understand that you were not focusing on any single family. You have made the argument that parenting is less adequate today than it used to be. You have connected that to the "changing dynamic of the traditional family". I wholly reject this idea in part due to the evidence of children increasingly making better decisions and my own anecdotal evidence that children really are better people than they were when I was a kid.

I think 20/30 years ago a woman would have been more likely to have stayed with an abusive man due to societal pressures of maintaining the "traditional family". Being a single mom would be hard and I don't think it is ideal but I also recognize that many of those children would be in a much worse household if she was still married.

Marriage isn't bad but I do think that many people that get divorced do so for good reason even if they choose not to share those reasons with the world. If anything the liberalization of the traditional family has enhanced the well being of children in this country.
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Better in some ways but not others.

Here are a few specific areas that families are worse (in my opinion):

Respect for parents
Ability to self entertain outside of electronics
Some sort of faith in something/spirituality
Parents being on the same page on issues such as education, faith and discipline
Marriage (I honestly feel that the rise in unmarried families is not a good thing. However it is NOT something I would legislate or attmept to interfer with (freedom woot woot). I also would be very against preventing my child from associating with children of unmarried families)

Now granted this is generally speaking and is all personal opinion. But no less than your own answers. That's why I said earlier that it is not something that will really get proven either way as it is all opinion.
 
JAZZGASM said:
I agree parenting has gotten better in some regard. There have always been a mixture of "good" and "bad" parents. The difference is parents used to take responsibility for their kids. Kids behavior largely stays the same (although with the internet kids are smarter and learn more at an early age, both good and bad). However, I do think there has been a societal shift towards parents wanting schools to be responsible for their kids entire education. It was not that way when I was growing up. In addition to being taught to read and do math early on by my parents, they also demanded respect for them and society. When kids miss class they want the school to fix it. I had a brother that started missing class in high school, and when my parents found out my mom sat with him in all of his classes for a week (she took work off to do it too). He never missed again. I think this is the part that has eroded. I think there was more trouble in the past as we didn't have the helicopter parents of today. So, yes, kids had more opportunity to get into trouble, but that is how we learn. I learned more about society due to the freedom I had as a child. I would walk miles to school at age 6. At 8 I would ride my bike to the mall, go to the waterpark or skiing at a young age with friends on the bus, and with that trust and respect from my parents, I learned how to act away from my parents in society. That does not happen anymore.

Regardless, the system has been broken for a long time. And knowing many parents do not get involved (as educators know first hand), we need to force a solution that will help us rise up as a nation. I honestly feel that if parents had to pay when their kids didn't attend, or structuring an incentive system where you go to schools based on test scores/attendance, it might help. Many of these kids are too dumb to realize what they are losing out on by not taking advantage of free education. Others live in areas where the education provided is in adequate.
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There was a time in this country when the parents couldn't read or do math, and their kids learned 100% from schooling. The rest of your post is nothing more than seething out moral superiority based in nostalgic resentment against the world changing outside of your control.

I don't want to live in your 1960's utopia.
 
Stoked said:
Here are a few specific areas that families are worse (in my opinion):

Respect for parents Questionable. Nobody deserves respect just because they gave birth to you. Abusive and toxic parents deserve no respect.
Ability to self entertain outside of electronics Agree
Some sort of faith in something/spirituality That is actually positive in my book. Children should use their time better than wasting it on faith/spirituality.
Parents being on the same page on issues such as education, faith and discipline Agree. But why would you even marry somebody who is not on the same page in those subjects?
Marriage. I also would be very against preventing my child from associating with children of unmarried families Agree.
.
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my 2 cents.
 
Stoked said:
Better in some ways but not others.

Here are a few specific areas that families are worse (in my opinion):

1)Respect for parents
2)Ability to self entertain outside of electronics
3)Some sort of faith in something/spirituality

Now granted this is generally speaking and is all personal opinion. But no less than your own answers. That's why I said earlier that it is not something that will really get proven either way as it is all opinion.
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1) I disagree but that is just my view. The only evidence I can point to is result based. Increased graduation rates and decreased teen pregnancy. I assume you believe that respect for parents play a role in these statistics. If they do then the evidence would suggest more respect. Anecdotally all the children I know respect their parents better than the kids from my generation did.

2)Not really fair considering electronics sucked by comparison back then. I have no problem that my kid plays with her robotics and pc rather than watching saturday morning cartoons.

3) Glad you backed off nutrition anyway.

There is a decrease in traditional faith and spirituality and an increase in humanism and even objectivism but there is also far less bigotry and clan like behavior from all people regardless of their religious/moral philosophy. We have all made a transition away from clan behavior and towards universal moral and ethical standards. Judging people by the morality and ethics of their behavior as opposed to what their faith is is a good development, in my view.

I would very much like to see any evidence that people or children that lack faith or spirituality are in any way a problem.
 
franklin said:
There was a time in this country when the parents couldn't read or do math, and their kids learned 100% from schooling. The rest of your post is nothing more than seething out moral superiority based in nostalgic resentment against the world changing outside of your control.

I don't want to live in your 1960's utopia.
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I think you should re-read my post. I even state that parenting has gotten better in some regards. I never said a parent had to teach their kids to read or do math (obviously it isn't going to hurt). I think schools are teaching at a higher level than in the past. I am stating more parents want schools to do all of their educating, including teaching them how to behave and act. . The social aspects of schooling is very important, and it is why I don't advocate for home schooling, but if parents don't give teach kids how to behave appropriately, of course there are going to be issues. I was talking about teaching your kids respect for themselves and others, and taking responsibility for themselves. When parents are teaching their kids to act entitled rather than grateful, it is going to cause societal issues. They are teaching at higher levels every year, the problem isn't the curriculum per se (maybe the pace of the curriculum to an extent) but the attitude of many of the students.

It all comes down to a shift in responsibility. Kids have a completely different experience than we did as kids. I guess my question is why you are so defensive about my post that just opines on how parental focus has shifted?
 
heyhey said:
1) I disagree but that is just my view. The only evidence I can point to is result based. Increased graduation rates and decreased teen pregnancy. I assume you believe that respect for parents play a role in these statistics. If they do then the evidence would suggest more respect. Anecdotally all the children I know respect their parents better than the kids from my generation did.

2)Not really fair considering electronics sucked by comparison back then. I have no problem that my kid plays with her robotics and pc rather than watching saturday morning cartoons.

3) Glad you backed off nutrition anyway.

There is a decrease in traditional faith and spirituality and an increase in humanism and even objectivism but there is also far less bigotry and clan like behavior from all people regardless of their religious/moral philosophy. We have all made a transition away from clan behavior and towards universal moral and ethical standards. Judging people by the morality and ethics of their behavior as opposed to what their faith is is a good development, in my view.

I would very much like to see any evidence that people or children that lack faith or spirituality are in any way a problem.
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AKMVP lol


Had to take the shot.

Again this all comes down to opinion. In my experience spirituality is very anti clannish where as religion is clannish.

As for the tech, never said it was fair but it is still there. And I am not taking about playing a video game instead of watching a cartoon. I am talking about the kids that spend all day on a tablet, ipod, computer, laptop, cell phone, gaming system...instead of sometime outdoors, reading, playing music, studying...something.

Again we can go back and forth forever but it is all opinion based and ancedotal. I can respect your differences of opinion.
 
Stoked said:
AKMVP lol


Had to take the shot.
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That was funny actually. But seriously I truly believe that had my parents taken me fishing, hiking or camping on Sundays instead of dragging me to church I would respect them way more and I would have had much better childhood.
 
AKMVP said:
That was funny actually. But seriously I truly believe that had my parents taken me fishing, hiking or camping on Sundays instead of dragging me to church I would respect them way more and I would have had much better childhood.
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One can be spiritual and not go to church. I know several people this way.

Glad you enjoyed the joke, no harm meant.
 
Stoked said:
AKMVP lol


Had to take the shot.

Again this all comes down to opinion. In my experience spirituality is very anti clannish where as religion is clannish.

As for the tech, never said it was fair but it is still there. And I am not taking about playing a video game instead of watching a cartoon. I am talking about the kids that spend all day on a tablet, ipod, computer, laptop, cell phone, gaming system...instead of sometime outdoors, reading, playing music, studying...something.

Again we can go back and forth forever but it is all opinion based and ancedotal. I can respect your differences of opinion.
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Clarification

heyhey said:
there is also far less bigotry and clan like behavior from all people regardless of their religious/moral philosophy. We have all made a transition away from clan behavior and towards universal moral and ethical standards. Judging people by the morality and ethics of their behavior as opposed to what their faith is is a good development, in my view.
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I was saying that I think all people behave less clan like compared to those just a few decades ago. I expect that trend will continue.

I have no qualms with religious belief or spirituality. I don't think being Christian is a problem in and of itself. You seem to think that being atheist or "aspiritual" is a problem. It is reasonable for me to ask you why.
 
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