Memo's First Game in Europa

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Hmm. How you quantify or qualify "above average"? Remember, there are two sides of the floor. And about 90 feet of wood in-between as well.

You got me.

 

[InGameStrategy]

if they hadn't extended Okur he would have become an unrestricted free agent. i realize you think he is horrible, but he certainly would have gotten offers from other teams (like Haywood did, for about $35 million more).

Good for Memo. He's a good guy. I wish I were Memo--more than I wish that I were almost any other player on the Jazz. He has a hot wife, a cute kid, an awesome yellow Lotus car, and the adulation of the entire Ottoman Empire. But let another team (over)pay for him.

. . . and the Jazz were far over the salary cap with or without Okur.

So really, Okur didn't cost $10 million per year, but rather $10 million times the luxury tax multiple. Thank you for doubling (literally) the weight of my argument.

there wasn't going to be anyone else to "sign" if Okur was gone.

I hardly think that there would have been absolutely nobody. Brad Miller--even longer in the tooth than the Turk--was available in 2010, and signed with the Rockets for less than half as much as Okur, and he still put up 13.5 and 8 per 36 (eerily similar to Okur's numbers in 2008-09) and logged a similar +/-. Furthermore, the existing backups could've logged 5 or 10 minutes each more, at similar impact as Okur, even when not accounting for injury.

this is a serious question: did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, Koufos can't play? has he shown anything since escaping the clutches of our former coach?

Yes, that did occur to me, but Koufos was showing otherwise before Sloan randomly shut him down, despite his work ethic, likely implying to KoKo (at least subconsciously) that effort didn't matter, and that performance didn't even matter, because Sloan was going to favor the vets, even if when the vets were sucking it up.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, a slower, lower-producing Okur wasn't worth $10 million per, especially when MO was taking away crucial development time (at minimal net productivity advantage) from the youngins?

did you know that Fesenko went down with a serious injury at the Eurobasket tournament? i might have missed it, in another thread maybe, where you congratulated KOC for not giving Fesenko a multiyear deal right before an injury (like he did to Okur)... you did congratulate him, right?

I don't recall congratulating KOC for not giving Fesenko a multi-year deal; I would be among the last to do so. And Fesenko did have gastric issues repeatedly last season, and Favors/Kanter/Jefferson is a better combo at the 5, assuming that AJ bothers to play defense. (In other words, Fesenko's chance injury in Eurobasket is even more irrelevant than Memo's chance injury after he signed the contract extension. In both cases, it wouldn't have affected my decision.)

In 2009, I didn't think the the Jazz should re-sign Memo because he wasn't a cornerstone, he was a bad complement to Boozer, he was only a so-so complement to Millsap, and he was slowing down. And that was before his Achilles went ape****.

 

[billyshelby]

Memo playing is only good. He's got lots of rust to shake off. No way is he anywhere near NBA shape. But he can help us a lot next year. His best days are behind him, but big guys who can shoot and have clutch in their DNA are always useful.

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

So really, Okur didn't cost $10 million per year, but rather $10 million times the luxury tax multiple. Thank you for doubling (literally) the weight of my argument.

i said "cap", not "tax". they could exceed the cap to extend Memo. they had no cap space to sign anyone else. so the options were: extend Okur or risk losing him and going with Koufos/Fesenko instead.

 

[InGameStrategy]

i said "cap", not "tax". they could exceed the cap to extend Memo. they had no cap space to sign anyone else. so the options were: extend Okur or risk losing him and going with Koufos/Fesenko instead.

In 2009, the options were: extend Okur, or wisely wait a year when you have more information. Or realize that he's started declining and already wasn't a key cog, so let him go. And going with Koufos, Fesenko, and whoever else they sign with the massive monetary savings. (Did they use their MLE that year?)

Congratulations on responding to one of my five responses. You were right; you might have not doubled my argument.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

In the first quarter, Memo looked fat and slow. His defense was atrocious (misplayed PnR's twice, and got beat off the dribble really bad by another big man).

Soooo your saying nothing's changed?????

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

yes, you're a communist, but do you have to be so dammed negative? come on, the Jazz looked pretty good circa 2009. they just kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs.

If your excuse is that, "you kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs", than maybe,just maybe.the team didnt look as good after all,as you thought they did!"Circa 2009".Dont make excuses for them. Carlos Boozer and Deron Williams and the 2009 Utah Jazz could've beat the Lakers in 2009 but they just didnt do anything to allow them that privlege.
I have never heard of NBA Greats like: Malone, Stockton, Magic, I. Thomas, J. Dumars, K-G, Pierce, R. Allen, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Chamberlain, J. Erving, D. Thompson, Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing, Olajuwon, The Admiral, Moses Malone, J. Sloan (Playing days or Coaching days) etc etc etc etc.... Use the excuse (Whether they won or lost),say, "Well we could've had a shot at the Ring in the finals, but we just kept running into the wrong team!" In 1998 there were a lot of things that Stockton, Malone, Sloan, Hornacek and other Jazz players could have said and used as Excuses! But they didnt! That is the difference between true Legends and todays rise-suddenley stars. The champions of then discussed their teams strengths and weaknesses, And more importantly, Praised the opposing team for their efforts in a well played game. Today its all about what somebody else did, to hold you back from recieving the outcome that you wanted. It's never your fault! Point the finger in who ever's face is closest. BUT NEVER, NEVER! Point it in the face that you see standing in the mirror.
have, but didnt.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

But at the time Okur's contract ended, Matthews had played a year in the league, and that's when the Jazz should've considered extending Okur, instead of the year before, for precisely these reasons: to have more data on how Okur was doing (he regressed in his last year of the first contract after the extension was already sign) and to see who was out there who would be more valuable (i.e., a Matthews with huge upside for the equally anemic wing spot rather than a declining Okur).

Koufos was coming along OK until about February when Sloan, without any reason whatsoever, demoted his modest minutes to mere scraps. Koufos lost development, and Sloan made no effort to find time for him. While it was disappointing that KK didn't really recover until after he was traded, the effort on finding development minutes for him (even when the existing rotation was sucking wind or when the outcome of the game was not in question) was virtually nonexistent.

For Koufos, any weak argument that he wasn't putting forth effort in practice is moot, because he was a diligent worker. But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago--and is also a core reason why Utah wasn't a legitimate contender since Stockton-to-Malone: the supporting cast wasn't sufficiently developed.

The scanty minutes for Fesenko are symptomatic of the same coaching fallacy that was committed with Koufos. The key difference here is that--on average--Fesenko had more positive impact than KK, but his off-court work ethic gave Sloan an excuse not to play him (even though on-court performance is what matters, and even though the existing big-man rotation not named Millsap was piss-poor on D, warranting the scrubs to come in for a few minutes at a time anyway just to enforce performance among the regular rotation, including Okur).

An analysis of the rest of the team is not necessary to come to the valid conclusion that re-signing Okur was not worth it; analyzing the alternatives (Matthews, when Okur's contract was actually over) and the replacements (developing a half-way decent defensive center was a better complement to Boozer and Millsap than Okur was anyway) merely supported the no-go decision. In 2009, Okur was already slowing down, making his defense even more so-so than it was, and thus an analysis of Okur's potential should have been all that was necessary. The rest is only gravy.

It's not much of a consolation that it was a bad contract for only two years rather than longer. And the notion that beating your head against the wall for two hours feels better than for longer isn't much consolation, either.

"But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago."

"A trend with a lack of effort, by Sloan, with developing". (Or by what you are saying, NOT DEVELOPING Big Men.) Do you happen to be talking about Ostertag who was absolutely horrible at playing offense or defense, but happened to play his best defensive years (mainly 97-99) while being directed under Coach Sloan? Or maybe you are talking about Karl Malone's overall improvement right after Jerry Sloan took over Frank Layden's position?.........Karl Malone is considered a Big Man, right?

Or as you were originally saying, Sloan should have given Kosta Kofous more minutes so he would improve and develop like Jarron Collins? Maybe Sloan learned from the Jarron Collins experiment and didnt want to put the Jazz though several *plus*, more! miserable years with a center that couldnt dribble the ball one time without screwing something up. You really want to argue the greatness of Kofous over being played 5, or 10 minutes a game? Yea, ok, give him more that 5 minutes, hes a dynamic center in the NBA. Screw Coach Sloan! He was way wrong!!!! But YOU, YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

 

[InGameStrategy]

"But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago."

"A trend with a lack of effort, by Sloan, with developing". (Or by what you are saying, NOT DEVELOPING Big Men.) Do you happen to be talking about Ostertag who was absolutely horrible at playing offense or defense, but happened to play his best defensive years (mainly 97-99) while being directed under Coach Sloan?

I am sooooo glad that you brought up Greg Ostertag, because he is Exhibit A as to why Fesenko and Koufos needed more than 5 MPG to develop (as if this were actually controversial): Ostertag--despite being undermotivated, like Fesenko--got more minutes in his first season than Fesenko did in his first three seasons. Fesenko's performance was in the neighborhood of Ostertag's.

Or maybe you are talking about Karl Malone's overall improvement right after Jerry Sloan took over Frank Layden's position?.........Karl Malone is considered a Big Man, right?

Karl Malone was already self motivated, and although Sloan uniquely helped Malone, that example is not particularly relevant to Fesenko and Ostertag, who were both second-rounders and who started with Sloan from the beginning.

Or as you were originally saying, Sloan should have given Kosta Kofous more minutes so he would improve and develop like Jarron Collins?

Jarron Collins got twice as much rookie minutes than Ostertag, so thank you again for bringing up Jarron to prove my point. Key difference is that Fesenko has more physical gifts than both 'Tag and Tree (Collins), and Koufos probably has a better jump shot. But Sloan only gave them scraps, even when the existing rotation was sucking.

Maybe Sloan learned from the Jarron Collins experiment and didnt want to put the Jazz though several *plus*, more! miserable years with a center that couldnt dribble the ball one time without screwing something up.

With the dire need for big men (on the Jazz and elsewhere), it was foolish for Sloan to not invest more court time in developing these players. This could have been done without sacrificing wins, and chances are the existing rotation would've played better, too, if the scrubs were used to send a message to CB and MO that (all of) their minutes weren't guaranteed.

You really want to argue the greatness of Kofous over being played 5, or 10 minutes a game?

Yes, I do, because once you give a player 10 MPG on a regular basis, then that player can start develop. This applies not only to centers but also to other positions. This applies not only to basketball but to other sports also.

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

If your excuse is that, "you kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs", than maybe,just maybe.the team didnt look as good after all,as you thought they did!"Circa 2009".Dont make excuses for them.

i was only half serious there. nevertheless, isn't it clear those/these Lakers were/are some kind of bad matchup for the Jazz (and everyone else)?

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

Congratulations on responding to one of my five responses.

no sense beating a dead horse to death.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

Oh My, I forgot how much Memo hate and his contract extension hate there is. IMO opinion the only valid statement is the Jazz could've decided to let another team pay him 10+mil per year as there was no way around him getting at least that with at least that many years.
The rest is revisionist history, no don't extend Memo, yes should've somehow locked up Mathews earlier (somehow) or signed him for more years (because every undrafted player is always good) and then oh no wait don't extend AK early. Go back further (why wasn't KOC the first to call Bell or Korver example) and there is loads of examples of loads and loads of people complaining the Jazz did the opposite of what they should've.