Mormons and materialism.

[Siro]

I thought some here would find this article of interest. It is something I've always wondered about (how social conservatism and free market politics became entangled).

https://www.alternet.org/story/1549...rs_would_be_very_disappointed_in_mitt_romney/

 

[Beantown]

Good article with very valid points. Like I said before Joseph and Brigham would not recognize te church of today.

 

[franklin]

Who was the guy who gave the GC talk about going to NYC in less than top of the line cloth so employer billionaire John Huntsman had him fitted in a $4000 suit? It's only a couple years back.

I don't mean any offense to anyone but that really disturbed the hell out of me. It came off as a GC going against every standardized warning inside the BofM.

 

[bigb]

The writer certainly has a tilted view, IMO. But they are some very valid points.

 

[JFFR]

Some good 'ol fashioned Mormon economics for ya.

Brigham Young- The Use and Abuse of Blessings
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_1/Use_and_Abuse_of_Blessings

"While the brethren have been speaking upon the blessings the Lord bestows upon this people, my mind has reflected upon many of the circumstances of life, and upon certain principles. I will ask you a question—Do you think persons can be blessed too much? I will answer it myself. Yes, they can, they can be blessed to their injury. For instance, suppose a person should be blessed with the knowledge of the holy Gospel, whose heart is set in him to do evil. We esteem this as a blessing, and would not the Lord consider it a blessing to bestow His favors and mercies upon any individual, by giving him a knowledge of life and salvation? But suppose He bestowed it upon persons whose hearts were set in them to do evil, who would by their wickedness turn these blessings into curses, they would be blessed too much. It is possible to bless people to death, you can bless them to everlasting misery by heaping too many blessings upon them. Perhaps this is what was meant by the saying—It is like heaping coals of fire upon their heads; it will injure them, consume them, burn them, destroy them. Suffice it to say, that people can be blessed too much. Can you bless a wise man too much? a man who knows what to do with his blessings when they are bestowed upon him? No, you cannot. Can you bless a wise people too much? No, it is impossible, when they know how to improve upon all blessings that are bestowed upon them."

 

[JFFR]

Interesting that the article makes no mentions of the hundreds of millions of dollars the church has spent on charity. The article also makes the assumption that the way to take care of the poor is through the government. Why not take a look at how much money Romney gives to charity?

I'm of the opinion that society is better off when we take care of each other, not when we tax each other and have the government take care of us. It used to be that when you were in trouble you went to your family, your church, the Salvation Army, the Kiwanis Club, the Rotary Club, your neighbors... nowadays we are supposed to go to the government. And government is heartless, because you are knocking on the door of a bureaucrat.


-----------
Sure there are some LDS people that are rich, but before you criticize Jon Huntsman for buying someone a suit, why don't you look up on the noth eastern hills of Salt Lake City? Mormon Welfare works better than Federal Welfare. Mormon Charities respond faster than FEMA. Why doesn't the article mention this???



P.S. Thanks for sharing the article, I LOVED it. There are WAY too many LDS people that are materialistic and need the message. I'm posting it on my facebook wall to throw a middle finger at all my Tea party friends that think being a true latter day saint means being a member of the Tea Party.

 

[franklin]

Sure there are some LDS people that are rich, but before you criticize Jon Huntsman for buying someone a suit, why don't you look up on the noth eastern hills of Salt Lake City? Mormon Welfare works better than Federal Welfare. Mormon Charities respond faster than FEMA. Why doesn't the article mention this???

I definitely agree. If anything, it would be easier to fault LDS people for being overly charitable. Huntsman is giving his fortune to medical research and that wasn't about him being a bad guy or anything. I found that GC speech very odd and missing the point is all.

 

[TroutBum]

Good article, but a bit too over the top for me. I'm not Romney fan, but give me a break... That guy has probably helped 10,000x more people than you or I combined.

 

[Stoked]

I have no problem with the LDS Chruch being filthy rich. Owning possesions is not a sin. Letting them affect your pride is. The LDS Church does many, many wonderful things. Charities, employment programs, humanitarian aid, training...with their wealth.

 

[Scat]

There are WAY too many people that are materialistic and need the message.

Fixed.

 

[BluesRocker]

This dude is just looking for a Mormon to fight with

Siromar, you trollin as mother efffer you.

Who knew.

 

[Siro]

This dude is just looking for a Mormon to fight with

Siromar, you trollin as mother efffer you.

Who knew.

A lot of Mormons use these forums, and I thought they would find the article interesting. I don't care enough about Mormonism to pick fights (after all, I survived 4 years at BYU without incident). Islam on the other hand...

 

[Stoked]

A lot of Mormons use these forums, and I thought they would find the article interesting. I don't care enough about Mormonism to pick fights (after all, I survived 4 years at BYU without incident). Islam on the other hand...

Should be held to a standard that is no different. Some of its self proclaimed followers on the other hand...

 

[JFFR]

A lot of Mormons use these forums, and I thought they would find the article interesting. I don't care enough about Mormonism to pick fights (after all, I survived 4 years at BYU without incident). Islam on the other hand...

This is really none of my business and you may have stated this in another post that I missed, but I'm curious. You went to BYU and you aren't Mormon? Are you an athlete? What was that like? What's your story? Why would you do that?

 

[Mr. McGibblets]

Interesting that the article makes no mentions of the hundreds of millions of dollars the church has spent on charity.

https://www.providentliving.org/welfare/pdf/WelfareFactSheet.pdf

1985 - 2009 (so 25 years):

Humanitarian Aid in Cash: $327.6 Million

Humanitarian Aid in Material Assistance: $884.6 Million

Total: $1.13 Billion in 25 years.

Roughly $45.2 Million/year, but I bet it has increased as the years have gone on to account for inflation.

Canadian tithing funds given to BYU in 2010: 102 Million

https://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip...k%3Dlatter-day%26amp%3Bb%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bp%3D2

UK tithing funds (where it's a "hard" mission and not growing):

https://www.charity-commission.gov....steredCharityNumber=274605&SubsidiaryNumber=0

City Creek Spending from 2003 - 2012: $1.5 Billion.

It's about priorities. Find an old financial ward clerk in your ward and strike up a conversation and ask roughly how much in tithing your ward brings in. If you are in the US then I bet it's over half a million a year easy. In my local congregation (ward) a few years ago we had a fundraiser to raise funds to buy hymn books, paper, and pencils for other congregations in Africa. The African wards did not get enough supplies from church headquarters. Turning around and sending a few million out in humanitarian relief is hardly noteworthy.

Before you go mentioning all the other good the church does, I agree! However, remember, the canneries and storehouses rely on free labor or labor in exchange for food vouchers, mixed with old couples on missions who are paying their own way, and people from local wards guilted into attending. Not to mention you then have to turn around and buy the food that you just canned (at a great price, yes, but you are still having to pay for it after you put a few hours of labor in).

The church did disclose its funds and how they handled money up until the 1960s when they made a bunch of financial mistakes and built too many buildings, etc. Joseph Smith pretty much bankrupted it himself too. Being god's "one true [] church" does not inoculate it from stupid financial decisions. There's a reason nobody is building billion dollar malls right now besides us and someone in New Jersey.

I hope some of the super faithful don't take this as some anti-rant, but in my experience, if something comes off critical of the church then it's immediately labeled "anti" or "persecution." I don't mean it to come across that way, merely to offer a perspective that our "church" could do more.

 

[Stoked]

https://www.providentliving.org/welfare/pdf/WelfareFactSheet.pdf

1985 - 2009 (so 25 years):

Humanitarian Aid in Cash: $327.6 Million

Humanitarian Aid in Material Assistance: $884.6 Million

Total: $1.13 Billion in 25 years.

Roughly $45.2 Million/year, but I bet it has increased as the years have gone on to account for inflation.

Canadian tithing funds given to BYU in 2010: 102 Million

City Creek Spending from 2003 - 2012: $1.5 Billion.

https://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip...k%3Dlatter-day%26amp%3Bb%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bp%3D2

It's about priorities. Find an old financial ward clerk in your ward and strike up a conversation and ask roughly how much in tithing your ward brings in. If you are in the US then I bet it's over half a million a year easy. In my local congregation (ward) a few years ago we had a fundraiser to raise funds to buy hymn books, paper, and pencils for other congregations in Africa. The African wards did not get enough supplies from church headquarters. Turning around and sending a few million out in humanitarian relief is hardly noteworthy.

Before you go mentioning all the other good the church does, I agree! However, remember, the canneries and storehouses rely on free labor or labor in exchange for food vouchers, mixed with old couples on missions who are paying their own way, and people from local wards guilted into attending. Not to mention you then have to turn around and buy the food that you just canned (at a great price, yes, but you are still having to pay for it after you put a few hours of labor in).

The church did disclose its funds and how they handled money up until the 1960s when they made a bunch of financial mistakes and built too many buildings, etc. Joseph Smith pretty much bankrupted it himself too. Being god's "one true [] church" does not inoculate it from stupid financial decisions. There's a reason nobody is building billion dollar malls right now besides us and someone in New Jersey.

I hope some of the super faithful don't take this as some anti-rant, but in my experience, if something comes off critical of the church then it's immediately labeled "anti" or "persecution." I don't mean it to come across that way, merely to offer a perspective that our "church" could do more.

I see nothing anti-mormon in that post at all. I agree that any church can make stupid financial decisions.

 

[Siro]

This is really none of my business and you may have stated this in another post that I missed, but I'm curious. You went to BYU and you aren't Mormon? Are you an athlete? What was that like? What's your story? Why would you do that?

I went to the BYU because:

1) It's an excellent school.
2) It is very affordable.
3) My parents wanted me to go to a college around Richmond, VA (where they live). I wanted to go elsewhere. They were afraid of me moving to a large city on my own as a 17 year old, so we landed on Utah. They thought it was safe and small.

 

[JFFR]

I went to the BYU because:

1) It's an excellent school.
2) It is very affordable.
3) My parents wanted me to go to a college around Richmond, VA (where they live). I wanted to go elsewhere. They were afraid of me moving to a large city on my own as a 17 year old, so we landed on Utah. They thought it was safe and small.

Makes a lot of sense. It's a great school for the tuition. Did you have a good experience?

 

[JFFR]

https://www.providentliving.org/welfare/pdf/WelfareFactSheet.pdf

1985 - 2009 (so 25 years):

Humanitarian Aid in Cash: $327.6 Million

Humanitarian Aid in Material Assistance: $884.6 Million

Total: $1.13 Billion in 25 years.

Roughly $45.2 Million/year, but I bet it has increased as the years have gone on to account for inflation.

Canadian tithing funds given to BYU in 2010: 102 Million

https://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip...k%3Dlatter-day%26amp%3Bb%3Dtrue%26amp%3Bp%3D2

UK tithing funds (where it's a "hard" mission and not growing):

https://www.charity-commission.gov....steredCharityNumber=274605&SubsidiaryNumber=0

City Creek Spending from 2003 - 2012: $1.5 Billion.

It's about priorities. Find an old financial ward clerk in your ward and strike up a conversation and ask roughly how much in tithing your ward brings in. If you are in the US then I bet it's over half a million a year easy. In my local congregation (ward) a few years ago we had a fundraiser to raise funds to buy hymn books, paper, and pencils for other congregations in Africa. The African wards did not get enough supplies from church headquarters. Turning around and sending a few million out in humanitarian relief is hardly noteworthy.

Before you go mentioning all the other good the church does, I agree! However, remember, the canneries and storehouses rely on free labor or labor in exchange for food vouchers, mixed with old couples on missions who are paying their own way, and people from local wards guilted into attending. Not to mention you then have to turn around and buy the food that you just canned (at a great price, yes, but you are still having to pay for it after you put a few hours of labor in).

The church did disclose its funds and how they handled money up until the 1960s when they made a bunch of financial mistakes and built too many buildings, etc. Joseph Smith pretty much bankrupted it himself too. Being god's "one true [] church" does not inoculate it from stupid financial decisions. There's a reason nobody is building billion dollar malls right now besides us and someone in New Jersey.

I hope some of the super faithful don't take this as some anti-rant, but in my experience, if something comes off critical of the church then it's immediately labeled "anti" or "persecution." I don't mean it to come across that way, merely to offer a perspective that our "church" could do more.

Thanks for posting. I've heard that the City Creek project lessened the severity of the recession in Salt Lake City because it brought about $1million a week into Salt Lake's economy (not verifiable numbers.)

I was always impressed by the $1billion in charity just because the numbers so large, I guess when you realize 1 billion is 2.5% of 40* billion, it's not as large of a number. Still pretty impressive though.

*40 billion isn't he best number to look at. I just used it cause they said the church was worth that like 10 years ago...

 

[Siro]

Makes a lot of sense. It's a great school for the tuition. Did you have a good experience?

I felt that I learned a lot. I never liked the atmosphere or the restrictions (like being prevented from taking a test because my hair covered part of my ear). I made very few real friends (most of whom were not active Mormons), just a number of acquaintances. For my graduate studies, I opted to go to the University of Utah. I thought the U was a better experience overall, but the quality of education is unquestionably higher at BYU.