Move On From Hayward?

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I can't read all of this thread. There is really one question here: Do the Jazz want to max Hayward under the current CBA and the 2017 salary cap? If yes, then go ahead and max him with the aim of keeping him. If not, then move him the same way we moved DWill and Enes Kanter (whom the Jazz decided they didn't want to max). Simple as that.

My own opinion is that maxing Gordon Hayward is roughly equivalent to other teams maxing players like Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson in the past. Maybe you do it, maybe you don't. You just have to understand what the consequences are related to trying to keep Favors, Gobert, Exum, Hood and Lyles. The Jazz are going to reach a point in the next two years where they simply can't keep all of their young players, some of whom are coming off rookie scale. They'll need to make a hard decision about who they want to pay to keep and who they want to move. Last season and the beginning of this season are supposed to provide the information needed to make this decision. The Exum injury last year hurt the information gathering process, but didn't set it back entirely.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Disgrace? What are you talking about? Is having an opinion a disgrace?

I've been here for a few days and it seems very obvious that some people are willing to crap on some people but others are so super sensitive. What gives?

Heads-up LoPo, ThaPhunkPhenomenon is a troll account that likes to use garbled/broken English with the aim of entertaining other posters here on Jazzfanz. It's not something you want to take seriously.

 

[fishonjazz]

I can't read all of this thread. There is really one question here: Do the Jazz want to max Hayward under the current CBA and the 2017 salary cap? If yes, then go ahead and max him with the aim of keeping him. If not, then move him the same way we moved DWill and Enes Kanter (whom the Jazz decided they didn't want to max). Simple as that.

My own opinion is that maxing Gordon Hayward is roughly equivalent to other teams maxing players like Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson in the past. Maybe you do it, maybe you don't. You just have to understand what the consequences are related to trying to keep Favors, Gobert, Exum, Hood and Lyles. The Jazz are going to reach a point in the next two years where they simply can't keep all of their young players, some of whom are coming off rookie scale. They'll need to make a hard decision about who they want to pay to keep and who they want to move. Last season and the beginning of this season are supposed to provide the information needed to make this decision. The Exum injury last year hurt the information gathering process, but didn't set it back entirely.

Great post. I think the jazz will max Hayward. I think that will be a mistake and possibly mean that the jazz won't be able to sign one or more of gobert, hood, exum, lyles, favors, burks if a few of those players reach their maximum potential.

 

[LoPo]

I can't read all of this thread. There is really one question here: Do the Jazz want to max Hayward under the current CBA and the 2017 salary cap? If yes, then go ahead and max him with the aim of keeping him. If not, then move him the same way we moved DWill and Enes Kanter (whom the Jazz decided they didn't want to max). Simple as that.

My own opinion is that maxing Gordon Hayward is roughly equivalent to other teams maxing players like Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson in the past. Maybe you do it, maybe you don't. You just have to understand what the consequences are related to trying to keep Favors, Gobert, Exum, Hood and Lyles. The Jazz are going to reach a point in the next two years where they simply can't keep all of their young players, some of whom are coming off rookie scale. They'll need to make a hard decision about who they want to pay to keep and who they want to move. Last season and the beginning of this season are supposed to provide the information needed to make this decision. The Exum injury last year hurt the information gathering process, but didn't set it back entirely.

Great post. And I agree completely. That is the reason I suggested this trade idea (Hayward for #3 then sign Barnes). If we don't believe in Barnes, then sign Fournier (which would make Gobert happy) to a frontloaded deal. Look at Batum. Trade peanuts for Gay. Exum plus Burks plus #3 plus any wing listed above puts us firmly in the playoffs.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Great post. And I agree completely. That is the reason I suggested this trade idea (Hayward for #3 then sign Barnes). If we don't believe in Barnes, then sign Fournier (which would make Gobert happy) to a frontloaded deal. Look at Batum. Trade peanuts for Gay. Exum plus Burks plus #3 plus any wing listed above puts us firmly in the playoffs.

Frontloaded deals are no longer options because of the CBA... Both Batum and Fournier get the max... Magic match Fournier and retain him. Batum is unrestricted so who knows but apparently he really likes Charlotte and they can offer him more money.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Why do people on here think we can trade Hayward for a high draft pick. I mean I know this forum tends on the overly optimistic side of things, but still.

I wish people would think of trades from the perspectives of both sides. Like in this case above, imagine if Boston was actually Utah. Would you want to trade the #3 pick for a 1 year rental?

If people actually looked at the trade from the other side and pretended that team was actually Utah, I think a lot of silly trade proposals would be eliminated.

Wrong. What u should be asking is why in the hell would we trade Hayward for the #3 pick?? Are we going to trade favors Gobert Exum Hood and Lyles and Burks when they reach the last year of their contract?

If not for the injury issues Its possible Hayward would e led this team to a 5th-6th seed in a rebuilding year. Thank god the Jazz organization isn't as weak minded as u and plenty of others. How are the Jazz ever going to contend if they keep trading players because we think it's possible we may not resign. Hayward is no different from then the rest of the players in the league. Utah can pay more then any other team. Why wouldn't he want he want the best contract possible?

 

[da ThRONe]

Wrong. What u should be asking is why in the hell would we trade Hayward for the #3 pick?? Are we going to trade favors Gobert Exum Hood and Lyles and Burks when they reach the last year of their contract?

If not for the injury issues Its possible Hayward would e led this team to a 5th-6th seed in a rebuilding year. Thank god the Jazz organization isn't as weak minded as u and plenty of others. How are the Jazz ever going to contend if they keep trading players because we think it's possible we may not resign. Hayward is no different from then the rest of the players in the league. Utah can pay more then any other team. Why wouldn't he want he want the best contract possible?

You trade them if they expect to be paid like a superstar without having a superstar impact. You can't pay them all max deals so if they all prove to be really good like Hayward, but expect to be paid like they are elite if you're a GM and you're smart you trade them for value rather than paying a guy more than he's worth.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

How is a player who has never made an all star game and isn't a go to clutch guy worth a number 3 pick? Please explain.

A team like the Lakers or Celtics might trade a high lottery pick for a veteran player like Hayward if they believed doing so would help them attract a marquee free agent.

The Celtics did this in the past when they traded the #5 pick (Jeff Green) to the Seattle Supersonics for Ray Allen. The combination of Ray Allen and Paul Pierce together on the Celtics then was enough to convince Kevin Garnett to sign a big deal with the Celtics upon being traded by Minnesota.

So the rationale is that trading #3 for Hayward + Free Agent (e.g., Al Horford) is a good deal.

That said, if you look at the #3 picks for the past 10 years and compare their NBA careers to Gordon Hayward, you'll see that Hayward alone probably has that value to a team that's risk averse and not willing to wait 4 years to develop a young player.

The last five #3 picks were: Enes Kanter, Brad Beal, Otto Porter, Joel Embiid, Jahlil Okafor

Maybe 1 or 2 of these guys will become better than Hayward, but I'm not a team will be in a hurry to trade Hayward for one of these 5 guys.

Ask how many Jazzfanz want to trade Gordon Hayward for Jamal Murray, Dragan Bender, Kris Dunn, or Jaylen Brown--the guys in play to go #3 in this draft.

 

[fishonjazz]

Are we going to trade favors Gobert Exum Hood and Lyles and Burks when they reach the last year of their contract?

Depends. Are they going to get 30+ million per year and only be as good as hayward?

I think it's only a matter of time until we hit on a draft pick that is better than Hayward. Look at each team in the league. Lots of teams have a player better than Hayward on their team. And most all of those players were drafted by their current teams.

Hell, we might already have that player currently on the roster plus we have many draft picks coming up in the next few drafts (2017 is supposedly loaded). I would bet we will have a player worth more than Hayward on the jazz soon. (Either one we draft, trade for, or someone currently on the roster)
I hope we will still be able to max that player and re-sign our other good players we currently have. I worry that hayward being under a 5 year contract starting over 30 million and ending up close to 40 million might hurt our chances of doing so.


So Hayward is a low level all star type player or just under that level. What if hood, Gobert, lyles, favors, burks, and exum all become near all stars? Can we pay all of them 30 million per? Can we give all of them the 5 year max? (I think we can only give 1 player the 5 year max but could be wrong)

I know I know, then we just trade some of them right? Max deals get traded all the time cause it's so easy to make blockbuster trades and you always get equal value back for an overpaid player.

 

[FalseFlagg K]

He'd still be one of the most unique players in the game with his defensive ability and skill set, he'd still get open looks because he's guarded by bigs most of the time, his drive and dish game would still exist if he's a threat, and his IQ, understanding, instincts, and fire would still exist. Everyone benefits from playing on that team and in that system, but Draymond Green is so much more than numbers.

Harrison Barnes is hardly more than his numbers. His ability to positionally shift is what makes him worth a damn, and that's useless on this team.

Green would certainly still be a very unique player but if you think that playing in another team wouldn't have an effect on his efficiency you are bat**** stupid. You seriously don't think that play with two of the most defense distorting guards EVER doesn't open a tonne of space for him ?? You don't think his drive and dish game wouldn't be affected without all that space ? How many of his 3 attempts are contested ?

As for Hayward vs green They are different players being asked to do different things. They both have an awesome skill set, if you look at numbers to value them you don't understand the game. Pointless to compare them.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Depends. Are they going to get 30+ million per year and only be as good as hayward?

I think it's only a matter of time until we hit on a draft pick that is better than Hayward. Look at each team in the league. Lots of teams have a player better than Hayward on their team. And most all of those players were drafted by their current teams.

Hell, we might already have that player currently on the roster plus we have many draft picks coming up in the next few drafts (2017 is supposedly loaded). I would bet we will have a player worth more than Hayward on the jazz soon. (Either one we draft, trade for, or someone currently on the roster)
I hope we will still be able to max that player and re-sign our other good players we currently have. I worry that hayward being under a 5 year contract starting over 30 million and ending up close to 40 million might hurt our chances of doing so.


So Hayward is a low level all star type player or just under that level. What if hood, Gobert, lyles, favors, burks, and exum all become near all stars? Can we pay all of them 30 million per? Can we give all of them the 5 year max? (I think we can only give 1 player the 5 year max but could be wrong)

I know I know, then we just trade some of them right? Max deals get traded all the time cause it's so easy to make blockbuster trades and you always get equal value back for an overpaid player.

My feeling is that Hayward has played his entire career under a rebuilding team, and had he played for the Spurs, Thunder or some other playoff team, he'd be a multiple time allstar. Hell, it took Deron on a very good team four years to make an allstar team. There are a lot of good players that wish they could put up the numbers Hayward does. He is vastly underrated by his own fans.

He has been held back by the fact that he plays on a rebuilding team wher all focus is on stopping him and he doesn't get noticed as he plays in Utah. I don't see him as a low end allstar.


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[da ThRONe]

My feeling is that Hayward has played his entire career under a rebuilding team, and had he played for the Spurs, Thunder or some other playoff team, he'd be a multiple time allstar. Hell, it took Deron on a very good team four years to make an allstar team. There are a lot of good players that wish they could put up the numbers Hayward does. He is vastly underrated by his own fans.

He has been held back by the fact that he plays on a rebuilding team wher all focus is on stopping him and he doesn't get noticed as he plays in Utah. I don't see him as a low end allstar.


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Stop making excuses. Your argument is that of the exact player Fish described. A fringe All-Star.