Multiverse - Higgs boson - String - Anthropic Principle

[Stoked]

There are atheists who assert the notion of God is inherently contradictory/impossible, but they are a minority of atheists. I don't claim to have no evidence of the non-existence of God. I only say that, lacking evidence for God, I don't believe in God. No faith needed.

You do not believe in God but you cannot prove it. Belief in something you cannot prove is by definition faith. Either way when it comes down to God it is faith no matter what. Faith He is there or faith He isn't. If you believe in God but do not follow Him that is still faith that He is there.

 

[One Brow]

You do not believe in God but you cannot prove it.

I can't prove I lack belief?

Belief in something you cannot prove is by definition faith.

Is lacking belief in something that can't be proven also faith? Do you have faith there are no leprechauns, or do you just not believe in leprechauns? Are you saying there is no such thing as a faith-less position?

Either way when it comes down to God it is faith no matter what. Faith He is there or faith He isn't. If you believe in God but do not follow Him that is still faith that He is there.

I have no faith God is there, and no faith God is not there, unless you are defining the non-belief in cobbler elves as being faith.

 

[Stoked]

faith/feɪθ/ Show Spelled [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Dictionary.com That is how i am defining it.

 

[scootsy]

Nowhere in the video did it mention evidence that these universal constants can be different than they are. Being unable to prove they can't be different is not evidence they can be different. Where is your evidence they can be different?

this may take this a different direction, but what if constants weren't constant at all?

https://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/constants/

or bringing it back, this is also speculation and not evidence, but i liked this quote from this (<<that's a link) article.

Our observable *uni*verse could be one of many isolated oases surrounded by an infinity of lifeless space—a surreal place where different forces of nature hold sway and particles such as electrons or structures such as carbon atoms and DNA molecules could be impossibilities. If you tried to venture into that outside world, you would cease to be.

and this one.

the word “constant” may be a misnomer. Our constants could vary both in time and in space. If the extra dimensions of space were to change in size, the “constants” in our three-dimensional world would change with them. If we looked far enough out in space, we might begin to see regions where the “constants” have settled into different values. Ever since the 1930s researchers have speculated that the constants may not be constant. String theory gives this idea a theoretical plausibility and makes it all the more important for observers to search for deviations from constancy.

 

[scootsy]

I can't prove I lack belief?



Is lacking belief in something that can't be proven also faith? Do you have faith there are no leprechauns, or do you just not believe in leprechauns? Are you saying there is no such thing as a faith-less position?



I have no faith God is there, and no faith God is not there, unless you are defining the non-belief in cobbler elves as being faith.

Is the straw man simply in jest? Just curio.

 

[One Brow]

faith/feɪθ/ Show Spelled [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Dictionary.com That is how i am defining it.

Which of those covers a lack of belief? Under which definition is your (presumed) non-belief in leprechauns "faith"?

 

[One Brow]

this may take this a different direction, but what if constants weren't constant at all?

https://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/constants/

or bringing it back, this is also speculation and not evidence, but i liked this quote from this (<<that's a link) article.




and this one.

All interesting stuff. There are some constants that, should they change, we'd never be able to see a difference to begin with.

 

[One Brow]

Is the straw man simply in jest? Just curio.

If you mean the first sentence, yes, that was in jest.

 

[Gameface]

I see an athiests stance that there is not a higher power as a sign of faith. Faith that there isn't. Why you ask? Because they cannot prove there is not a higher power anymore than I can prove there is.

I don't really agree. My position isn't that I know there isn't a God, it's that I don't accept the existence of anything that I have nothing to compel me to believe exists. In other words, I'll believe in God just as soon as evidence is presented that suggests his existence is more probable than his lack of existence.

I don't see that as having any sort of faith, I see it as a wait and see position.

Why not call it agnosticism, then? Because I don't entertain the possibility of the existence of anything and everything that I can't disprove exists. I assume on the one had that things do exists that I am unaware of but also that I cannot ascribe specific qualities to these things until I can observe them. So the notion that God exists and that we know what he wants from us is, no offense intended, ridiculous to me.

There is a lot of having your cake and eating it too in the religious community. The argument that because we don't have all the answers through science, the great majesty, mystery and unknowns in the Universe MUST, MUST be the result of a God of some sort is contradicted by the fact that those same religious people know who this God is, what he has done and what he commands us to do with out lives in specific and sometimes silly ways.

So is it that this God is unknown and that's why we can't really be Atheists, or because there is scripture that tells us all the answers and that the validity of those answers and of the wisdom contained within is proof that a God of a specific and known character exists?

 

[Stoked]

Which of those covers a lack of belief? Under which definition is your (presumed) non-belief in leprechauns "faith"?

Can a man prove God is real? Yes or no.

 

[Stoked]

I don't really agree. My position isn't that I know there isn't a God, it's that I don't accept the existence of anything that I have nothing to compel me to believe exists. In other words, I'll believe in God just as soon as evidence is presented that suggests his existence is more probable than his lack of existence.

I don't see that as having any sort of faith, I see it as a wait and see position.

Why not call it agnosticism, then? Because I don't entertain the possibility of the existence of anything and everything that I can't disprove exists. I assume on the one had that things do exists that I am unaware of but also that I cannot ascribe specific qualities to these things until I can observe them. So the notion that God exists and that we know what he wants from us is, no offense intended, ridiculous to me.

There is a lot of having your cake and eating it too in the religious community. The argument that because we don't have all the answers through science, the great majesty, mystery and unknowns in the Universe MUST, MUST be the result of a God of some sort is contradicted by the fact that those same religious people know who this God is, what he has done and what he commands us to do with out lives in specific and sometimes silly ways.

So is it that this God is unknown and that's why we can't really be Atheists, or because there is scripture that tells us all the answers and that the validity of those answers and of the wisdom contained within is proof that a God of a specific and known character exists?

Fair enough. I see that as a faith that there is not a God. You cannot prove there isn't. It is just us looking at the same thing and seeing it differently.

Edit: As for the rest of it that is all part of faith. Do we know everything about God or everything he has done? Of course not. Sometimes we get specific answers. Sometimes we do not.

 

[Gameface]

Fair enough. I see that as a faith that there is not a God. You cannot prove there isn't. It is just us looking at the same thing and seeing it differently.

Edit: As for the rest of it that is all part of faith. Do we know everything about God or everything he has done? Of course not. Sometimes we get specific answers. Sometimes we do not.

I lost my response...dang

Well, I DON'T have faith God doesn't exist. If you absolutely must insist that I'm a faith based person the most I'll concede is faith in scepticism. My stance here is not specific to the claim of the Christian God, the Muslim God or of any supernatural creator being, it's general scepticism. I don't accept anything to be true, nor do I give it any credibility, until it has made enough of a case for itself to warrant some attention. It is exactly how a criminal trial works. Someone is accused of a crime, it is up to those making the accusation to prove their case. Until they establish a legitimate case the defendant's innocence is assumed.

I maintain my virgin innocence in regard to claims of supernatural beings.

 

[Stoked]

I lost my response...dang

Well, I DON'T have faith God doesn't exist. If you absolutely must insist that I'm a faith based person the most I'll concede is faith in scepticism. My stance here is not specific to the claim of the Christian God, the Muslim God or of any supernatural creator being, it's general scepticism. I don't accept anything to be true, nor do I give it any credibility, until it has made enough of a case for itself to warrant some attention. It is exactly how a criminal trial works. Someone is accused of a crime, it is up to those making the accusation to prove their case. Until they establish a legitimate case the defendant's innocence is assumed.

I maintain my virgin innocence in regard to claims of supernatural beings.

I am talking about a higher power and not any specific diety. To me it simply comes down to faith. You accept that there is or you don't. To me those that say they don't have a stance means they are open to the possibility that something is there. That is a measure of faith. Not a big, grand one but it is still there.

 

[Gameface]

I am talking about a higher power and not any specific diety. To me it simply comes down to faith. You accept that there is or you don't. To me those that say they don't have a stance means they are open to the possibility that something is there. That is a measure of faith. Not a big, grand one but it is still there.

But you're forcing an answer that I'm not in a position to give. By not participating in religion and not accepting as real something for which I have no reason to believe is real doesn't mean I'm actively taking a position, but religious people insist that that is in and of itself a position.

Look, in my Universe the world does not revolve around the question of Gods existence. I've said it several times now, but my position is that God does not exist. Same as invisible unicorns. But you're not forcing me to pick a side as far as the unicorns are concerned. Why? Why do we not have hundreds of threads dedicated to the possibility that invisible unicorns are among us?

The reason why is because any claim that they do exist lacks credibility, so we disregard the possibility. If disregarding the possibility that God exists means I have some sort of faith that's fine. I just wonder why it's so important for you to tell me that despite what I say I have faith.

I mean, I could just as easily take the other track and try to point out places where you may fail to live up to your faith and tell you over and over that you don;t actually have faith, but I feel like that would be disrespectful. You say you have faith, good enough for me.

 

[Stoked]

But you're forcing an answer that I'm not in a position to give. By not participating in religion and not accepting as real something for which I have no reason to believe is real doesn't mean I'm actively taking a position, but religious people insist that that is in and of itself a position.

Look, in my Universe the world does not revolve around the question of Gods existence. I've said it several times now, but my position is that God does not exist. Same as invisible unicorns. But you're not forcing me to pick a side as far as the unicorns are concerned. Why? Why do we not have hundreds of threads dedicated to the possibility that invisible unicorns are among us?

The reason why is because any claim that they do exist lacks credibility, so we disregard the possibility. If disregarding the possibility that God exists means I have some sort of faith that's fine. I just wonder why it's so important for you to tell me that despite what I say I have faith.

I mean, I could just as easily take the other track and try to point out places where you may fail to live up to your faith and tell you over and over that you don;t actually have faith, but I feel like that would be disrespectful. You say you have faith, good enough for me.

I think there is a miscommunication in how we are using faith here. I am not talking about acts or how we chose to live. I have faith that there is a higher power but I am not active in any religion.

Also there are levels of faith. It can be as simple as being open to the possibility that something is true.

For example, you take on faith my claim of faith. You cannot prove I am faithful. You just choose to accept it but it does not change anything in your life.

 

[The Midnight]

PKM... again... "what have you done?!?!?!"

 

[One Brow]

Can a man prove God is real? Yes or no.

Depends on how God is defined. Some are self-contradictory, some are so remote that they haven't been active since the Big Bang, etc.

So, are you acknowledging that a lack of belief in leprechauns is not "faith", as you define it?

 

[Stoked]

Depends on how God is defined. Some are self-contradictory, some are so remote that they haven't been active since the Big Bang, etc.

So, are you acknowledging that a lack of belief in leprechauns is not "faith", as you define it?

Are you acknowledging that a lack of belief in God is faith?

 

[One Brow]

Are you acknowledging that a lack of belief in God is faith?

I put not believing in God in the same category as not believing in leprechauns. If you want to call both of them "faith", fine. Since you offered the definition, I'm curious wheich aspect of the definition you feel that fits under.

 

[Stoked]

I put not believing in God in the same category as not believing in leprechauns. If you want to call both of them "faith", fine. Since you offered the definition, I'm curious wheich aspect of the definition you feel that fits under.

Belief in something you cannot prove is faith.