Game Thread Nov 02, 2025 04:00PM MT: Utah Jazz @ Charlotte Hornets

[HadAnEffectHere]

This is the natural end to the tank. Next year having 3 picks and if we are play in good or just below... maybe the lotto gods smile upon us. Not expected to be a good draft in 2027.

Whether or not we land top 3 I think the tank is over and we go to trying to be okay... may or may not try to short cut it but we won't be sellers.

Ehh, Lauri is absolutely getting traded very soon so while it's the end of intentional losing, we have nothing serious other than him so we'll here for 2-6 years after this year.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don't think beating up on the Jazz defense is super impressive at the moment.

He's been good all year.

 

[Isaiah 1:13]

"I’m sorry but the Jazz should be embarrassed. The Hornets started 3 rookies, were without Ball and Miller, and the game was over by the middle of the second quarter."

Ball and Miller aren’t perennial all stars or even close to being the best players on the team imo. Miller it seems is always injured and Ball has been extremely inconsistent to start the season. Sexton being the lead dog was an upgrade imo.

if the players feel that the coach is not putting them in a position to win through scheming or lineups or telling the media every game how mad he is at the players its going to effect the effort of the players especially when its a young coach thats record now is 87 wins and 165 losses players might be just saying losing is ok because thats what coach wants

Tanking, being on a tanking team is like an alcoholic in denial and not psychologically beneficial to anyone. Players lose confidence and so do coaches. Charlotte benefits from having a fresh coach and more fresh players in this respect imo.

Because it, again, exposed where the Jazz really are.

And that is in the garbage, with a coach who talks a good game but in four years hasn't gotten a single player to play D. And all the assets the Jazz used to have, have been turned into guys that don't make a difference or are complete busts.


The Jazz won't be mid next year and just suck for this season. They will be garbage for several more years, at a minimum, unless they change their players and change the coach. That's the reality.

I refuse to adopt such a defeatist attitude but, I will concede that Charlotte looks to be well ahead of us in the development and finding a path out of the cellar game.

They started 3 rooks + 2 vets in Bridges/ Sexton who notoriously are not defenders yet their defense still looked miles ahead of the Jazz.

That should be concerning especially concerning the lack of effort defensively under Hardy for 4 straight years now.

Well Charlotte is coming off an absolute banner draft year and with their other notable young prospects, managed to win the Vegas Summer League a few months ago. The chasm between Knueppel and Bailey is wide, but that’s just four and five and who else are we going to take at five? Bailey was a known project and probably has the highest upside of all of the lottery prospects.

The big story though is the Sexton/Nurkic debacle trade. Nurk really isn’t much of a Bball player and Sexton is exceptional and I believe transforming this Charlotte team with his indomitable will, his upbeat demeanor and his work ethic. So we give up Sexton and a second for a guy that brings nothing but a goofy sense of Eastern European humour, why??? To what end? Then we carry two completely washed vets in Slo Mo and Love that also bring far less as culture guys than Sexton would have.

Then we keep Love as our third string center and waive Bamba. What center in the NBA can Love defend? And Bamba is the better career three point shooter. Watching Nurkic, a career .280 3pt shooter, cast off bricks from downtown, flail for rebounds and display his hands of stone in the paint - that was the game story imo. Bamba btw has a career 3 pt % over a hundred points better and is a legitimate stretch five, a much better shot blocker and not a poseur like Nurk.

We're probably trading Lauri on ~December 15th so I don't think we need to worry about our guys being too good defensively, lol.

It's some portion of Hardy being a terrible defensive coach and all of our prospects having been terrible defenders in college who aren't progressing.

(Kessler was obviously an elite defender in college, but he was acquired in trade. Out of the 8 guys we drafted, all were bad defensively in college other than Hendricks, who played a completely different position in college and has obviously struggled badly to transition away from center)

Valid point concerning our drafting primarily one way players. How in the hell do we do that and Charlotte finds McNeely at 29, Sion James (steal of the draft) at 33 and Kalkbrenner at 34? All two way players.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ehh, Lauri is absolutely getting traded very soon so while it's the end of intentional losing, we have nothing serious other than him so we'll here for 2-6 years after this year.

I think if Lauri is traded this season it will be for an offer that wows us. I think I could see a Lauri trade if we drafted Cam Boozer.

 

[HadAnEffectHere]

I think if Lauri is traded this season it will be for an offer that wows us. I think I could see a Lauri trade if we drafted Cam Boozer.

Lauri is getting force fed to a comical degree and we have three other PFs on the roster he's blocking any possible development for (Filipowski, Hendricks, Ace), this is a scheme to juice his stats before moving him to the Spurs for 2-3 picks.

Like, I don't think Ace is a fantastic prospect or anything, but he and Lauri are just a comically bad fit together and you don't pick Ace over Tre and Fears if you plan to keep Lauri.

A starting forward group of two PFs who can't pass or dribble is uhh, not what you want from a team building perspective, lol.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Lauri is getting force fed to a comical degree and we have three other PFs on the roster he's blocking any possible development for (Filipowski, Hendricks, Ace), this is a scheme to juice his stats before moving him to the Spurs for 2-3 picks.

Like, I don't think Ace is a fantastic prospect or anything, but he and Lauri are just a comically bad fit together and you don't pick Ace over Tre and Fears if you play to keep Lauri.

Ace is a SF to me. Taylor and Flip not exactly lighting the world on fire. I understand the line of thinking. I also think he's being force fed because he's our best player by far and has been performing at a very high level.

 

[HadAnEffectHere]

Ace is a SF to me. Taylor and Flip not exactly lighting the world on fire. I understand the line of thinking. I also think he's being force fed because he's our best player by far and has been performing at a very high level.

Ace is too unskilled to play SF and is defensively better long-term at PF due to his rebounding and shot blocking. Regardless if he's a SF or PF, he can't pass or dribble and is quite literally the worst possible forward complement to Lauri (whose main weaknesses are being unable to pass or dribble).

Obviously Ace is not strong enough to play PF for 3-4 years, but he's a long-term PF who fits very badly with Lauri by having their worst flaws overlap.

I think as soon as the Jazz dumped Collins and Sexton for nothing and picked Ace over Fears and Tre, it was clear Lauri was done in Utah as soon as his trade market picked up.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Ace is too unskilled to play SF and is defensively better long-term at PF due to his rebounding and shot blocking. Regardless if he's a SF or PF, he can't pass or dribble and is quite literally the worst possible forward complement to Lauri (whose main weaknesses are being unable to pass or dribble).

Obviously Ace is not strong enough to play PF for 3-4 years, but he's a long-term PF who fits very badly with Lauri by having their worst flaws overlap.

He's actually made some nice passes. I think he can play either forward spot. Its not an ideal fit with Lauri. I just don't think they are looking to move Lauri until they get a big offer or have someone like Boozer who clearly overlaps and has a higher ceiling.

Unless they are high level firsts - think Kings, Pels, type firsts - I don't think a couple firsts changes things for us. Maybe Det rolls out a few firsts and Holland and that is enough.

 

[Tanktastic]

Whether or not we land top 3 I think the tank is over and we go to trying to be okay... may or may not try to short cut it but we won't be sellers.

Exactly how does that happen? How do the Jazz become okay (some might say: mid) from this starting point? By getting guys like Collins, Sexton, Olynyk etc.?

And if the Jazz not only do not get a top3 pick, but don't get the franchise-altering player with said pick, the whole "multi-year contender or nothing" was just ********, right?

 

[HadAnEffectHere]

Exactly how does that happen? How do the Jazz become okay (some might say: mid) from this starting point? By getting guys like Collins, Sexton, Olynyk etc.?

And if the Jazz not only do not get a top3 pick, but don't get the franchise-altering player with said pick, the whole "multi-year contender or nothing" was just ********, right?

I mean, it would be giving up and saying it was a mistake and trying to just contend for the play-in forever afterwards, yes.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Exactly how does that happen? How do the Jazz become okay (some might say: mid) from this starting point? By getting guys like Collins, Sexton, Olynyk etc.?

And if the Jazz not only do not get a top3 pick, but don't get the franchise-altering player with said pick, the whole "multi-year contender or nothing" was just ********, right?

The young players get better but the ones that are duds are moved or completely out of the rotation. Sign or trade for one starter level player. Maybe replace the Love, Anderson, Svi spots for a vet who is decent.

Lauri, Walk, Key with one or two of the young players that get better... plus a vet signing (45M in cap space) or two. Being mid may look like 30-35 wins. With health I think we aren't that far away.

To your second point. It would be pretty disappointing. I don't know that there is a big franchise changing talent in the 2027 draft but we have 3 picks in the draft and if we are 9th/10th in odds then maybe we get lucky.

I could see us trading Lauri and sucking in 2027 still too... I just think its less likely. This thing has not gone how they wanted. In part due to some mistakes by the Jazz and in part because of bad luck. In the NBA you are one lucky or unlucky event away from changing your fortunes.

 

[HadAnEffectHere]

The young players get better but the ones that are duds are moved or completely out of the rotation. Sign or trade for one starter level player. Maybe replace the Love, Anderson, Svi spots for a vet who is decent.

Lauri, Walk, Key with one or two of the young players that get better... plus a vet signing (45M in cap space) or two. Being mid may look like 30-35 wins. With health I think we aren't that far away.

To your second point. It would be pretty disappointing. I don't know that there is a big franchise changing talent in the 2027 draft but we have 3 picks in the draft and if we are 9th/10th in odds then maybe we get lucky.

I could see us trading Lauri and sucking in 2027 still too... I just think its less likely. This thing has not gone how they wanted. In part due to some mistakes by the Jazz and in part because of bad luck. In the NBA you are one lucky or unlucky event away from changing your fortunes.

I think they just have to tank forever until they get a superstar, there's no other outs that allow Danny Ainge to keep his reputation. There's no path to being a 2nd round+ contender without tanking forever.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think they just have to tank forever until they get a superstar, there's no other outs that allow Danny Ainge to keep his reputation.

If its about DA's rep then I think its more likely a trade for a "star" that happens and not a perpetual tank. Zion, Ja, KAT, Garland, LaMelo short cut type of move. Try to recreate the KG/Pierce/Allen.

For this year... I think they will hear offers on Lauri but if the tank is secure (it is especially if this Walker thing ends up being an extended absence) then the hurry to move Lauri is just not there. On draft night maybe a team sends a pick in the 5-10 range that makes it interesting. I just think we will take our 40% chance at a top 3 pick and then see what we want to do from there.

Going through the scenario analysis where some say "what if we don't get a star in the draft or a high pick" is tough to come up with any good passable outcome because it removes the high upside. Its like saying "what does OKC do if SGA gets hurt"... they lose.

I think the two biggest whiffs we've had are not tanking hard enough in the Wemby draft and taking Williams over Buzelis. Other than that they have really been given a super ****** hand. We need to get some luck but I doubt they wait for lotto luck beyond this year.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Lauri is getting force fed to a comical degree and we have three other PFs on the roster he's blocking any possible development for (Filipowski, Hendricks, Ace),

You could just as well say that Lauri's insane gravity right now should make things a lot easier for those guys. I mean nobody's paying any attention to them while we have one dude scoring 50% of the team's points.

you don't pick Ace over Tre and Fears if you plan to keep Lauri.

But but but I thought Ace was the "clear" BPA at #5, and a rebuilding team like the Jazz simply has to take the BPA? At least that's what we heard from all the people who defended the pick.

 

[Tanktastic]

Lauri, Walk, Key with one or two of the young players that get better... plus a vet signing (45M in cap space) or two. Being mid may look like 30-35 wins. With health I think we aren't that far away.

That's just... isn't that... that's where the franchise was at the start of 22/23. Except they had a ton of draft picks in their arsenal.

In part due to some mistakes by the Jazz and in part because of bad luck. In the NBA you are one lucky or unlucky event away from changing your fortunes.

Other than that they have really been given a super ****** hand. We need to get some luck but I doubt they wait for lotto luck beyond this year.

I don't get how the Jazz have had bad luck, not to mention it being super ******.

Their picks have pretty much landed where they are most probable to end up. That's not bad luck.

The T-Henny injury was freakish and bad luck, but everyone else meaningful has pretty much been mainly healthy. I'd say that's pretty good luck.

Markkanen suddenly becoming an extremely valuable star player from being a throwaway in the trade is massively good luck.

 

[KqWIN]

Just based on what this regime has done, I kinda prefer trying to be lucky than good. The west is a gauntlet, and I don't have faith in our FO to navigate those waters without getting lucky first. Even a two year tank is a pretty quick turnaround. It just feels like a 4 year tank because of the half and half years. The reality is that every plan is overwhelmingly likely to fail. But I think building up from here without a tank takes much more mastery and I don't think we have that in the FO.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

That's just... isn't that... that's where the franchise was at the start of 22/23. Except they had a ton of draft picks in their arsenal.

That team was mid. It was on the back of vets that likely wouldn't be here long term. You asked how we get to mid... I answered. It would be a different type of mid with hopefully some big upside if one or two guys hit or take a leap. It would hopefully be building somewhere.

I don't get how the Jazz have had bad luck, not to mention it being super ******.

Their picks have pretty much landed where they are most probable to end up. That's not bad luck.

The T-Henny injury was freakish and bad luck, but everyone else meaningful has pretty much been mainly healthy. I'd say that's pretty good luck.

Markkanen suddenly becoming an extremely valuable star player from being a throwaway in the trade is massively good luck.

Its been ******. Slid back twice and haven't jumped up. Landing where you are most probable or in a probable range to land multiple times is not good luck. Taylor snapping his leg is bad luck.

They did get some good luck with Lauri BUT it also helped them be better than they should be in the Wemby draft. So it cut both ways. They didn't capitalize on that luck (one way or another) because of their desire for flexibility. Which I am fine with folks being upset with and I have said before they have a problem with commitment.

The absence of good luck that Dallas/Houston/San Antonio has received may not be characterized as bad luck if you want. The plan always relied on having good luck, which can come in many ways... and that has not happened. If you prefer to say they haven't had any luck... that's fine. They just can't wait forever imo.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Just based on what this regime has done, I kinda prefer trying to be lucky than good. The west is a gauntlet, and I don't have faith in our FO to navigate those waters without getting lucky first. Even a two year tank is a pretty quick turnaround. It just feels like a 4 year tank because of the half and half years. The reality is that every plan is overwhelmingly likely to fail. But I think building up from here without a tank takes much more mastery and I don't think we have that in the FO.

My guess is that if we don't land luck in 2026 that 2027 looks more like the half years. IDK... just based on how they have had diamond hands with Lauri thus far I am not sure they would be looking to move him while the base is getting restless and the fruits of the tank look rough thus far.

I think they are more likely to make a "go for the play in" trade than a Lauri trade. Will maybe view their other picks they own from 27-29 and the prospects they have as the way to get lucky in the draft.

 

[Tremendous Upside]

That team was mid. It was on the back of vets

Lauri 25
Sexton 24
Kessler 21
Vanderbilt 23
Agbaji 22
THT 22
NAW 24
Beasley 26

Ladies and gentlemen, your grizzled Utah Jazz 22/23 "vets". Practically running on fumes.

Yes, we had some important older players too. All winning teams have them. Saying that team had no future anyway is some high grade copium.

 

[KqWIN]

Desperate arguments don’t make for good arguments. They make you look like an idiot.