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Now this is just getting ****ing ridiculous - Portland after one of the Jazz . . . again.

Nate505 said:
If you believe he would have accepted a 3 year $10 million ($3.33 million a year) contract over a 5 year $33.4 million ($6.68 million a year) contract then I don't know what to say. Unless you believe he would have signed the first offer he saw without testing the open market. Frankly, I believe he was too smart to do so and with the offer he got it was obviously the correct financial decision.
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He wouldn't have gotten to the point of getting that offer. If OConner doesn't tell him to set his market value and offers him that 3 year $10 million Wes is taking it.

https://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/14/portland-bound-matthews-surprised-jazz-didnt-match/

You don't go into an interview about your new contract and have to mention that he wanted an offer from the Jazz three times if you didn't want to play for the Jazz
 
NUMBERICA said:
I am not a fan of Big Al, but holding onto Boozer got the Jazz Big Al. It was a savvy move, even if I think it was a mistake.
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That is where KOC lucked out big time. YOu can't tell me that he knew that during those last two dog years with Boozer he knew that Minnesota would give up Al for nothing. I think KOC was like the GM of the Bulls thinks Boozer is a great player. Boozer hurt our team by causing drama in the locker room and playing half @sses enough to make himself look good. NO way on earth KOC knew Al Jefferson's former team would trade for Beasley and take a crazy turn to trade one of their top scorers for nothing.
 
So if O'Conner makes a great trade it's because he "lucked out big time" and if moves or draft picks don't work out it's because he sucks. Thankfully the Millers don't evaluate his performance in a similar manner.

My biggest beef with KOC was his lack of moves during the summer of 2008, but if (and it's still a big if) over the next few years Kanter, Favors, Burks and some of our other players develop as hoped and we become a strong playoff team again - KOC will have successfully orchestrated two rebuilding projects with the same team - and that's something not alot of GM's have on their resume.
 
vslice02 said:
So if O'Conner makes a great trade it's because he "lucked out big time" and if moves or draft picks don't work out it's because he sucks. Thankfully the Millers don't evaluate his performance in a similar manner.

My biggest beef with KOC was his lack of moves during the summer of 2008, but if (and it's still a big if) over the next few years Kanter, Favors, Burks and some of our other players develop as hoped and we become a strong playoff team again - KOC will have successfully orchestrated two rebuilding projects with the same team - and that's something not alot of GM's have on their resume.
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No he has had some good moves. I like that he moved Dwill and what he got. But, that being said he put Dwill in that situation. Keep in mind I no longer root for Dwill. When you build a team with Boozer, Memo, AK, Dwill, Korver, and a mix of young talent like Brewer, and Matthews. You are going to have to tweak things going forward. But, instead of taking Boozer an overrated asset and moving him while his stock is high; KOC held him and moved the younger developing players saying that we didn't have the cap room to keep them. If I was Dwill I would not be happy either.
 
vslice02 said:
KOC will have successfully orchestrated two rebuilding projects with the same team - and that's something not alot of GM's have on their resume.
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If he did the rebuilding right in the first place we wouldnt have to rebuild again so quikly, after just a 5-yr playoff run and diminishing results with every passing year. KOC is good at salvaging something out of a crisis type of situation and his fans applaud him for that. But what they forget is that he is part of the reason why they had that crisis in th first place. While they applaud him for getting Korver in place of Girisuck, they forget that it was KOC who got us Girisuck in the first place.Forget his draft pick mistakes. Quite a few of his trades and FA signings starting from Meech/Starks to Girisuck to Bell havent gone too well either. He is still better than a lot of GMs and like I said he is good at pulling the team out of crisis situations, but there is nothing much to go euphoric about him. Maybe if he works with an owner like Cuban in the future we might get to know if he can be even more risk-taking and pro-active.
 
And may I add that in all of these Wesley Matthews histrionics, nobody ever mentions that Matthews would never have sniffed his success without KOC being on top of signing him in the first place? Sure, the Jazz have never really found a steal late in the first round, but most don't, and most don't have his record in drafting in the 2nd round either.

And at the risk of infuriating someone, I'm pretty sure 1st rounders were much more Sloan and ownership than it was KOC. I'm pretty sure I've heard as much but I don't have a LINK?????
 
Let's talk about bungles here:

1) AK's contract: I don't know what advice KOC gave on this, but I know it wasn't his call and I'm skeptical he did the convincing to ownership. I'm quite confident it was the other way around.
2) Memo's contract: See above.
3) Harpring's contract: Wasn't bad except for the amount of years. ****ing dumb. See above again.
4) Maynor trade: Refer to Harpring and AK contract
5) Not matching Matthews: Refer to AK and Memo's contract/not really his call
6) 2004 draft: Criticism has foundation
7) Brewer trade: some say the Jazz got robbed, some know the Jazz pulled a fast one on the Grizzlies. I'm in the latter camp, it wasn't a mistake. Either way, if it comes down to spending the money or not, it's not KOC's.

I think the Jazz should've been far more aggressive from '07-'09 but again, he's only allowed to do what he's allowed to do and had been 3rd in command on FO decisions through most of his tenure. As of now, I think he's finally got the reigns, and I think he's done as good a job as anyone could ask, regardless of how painful it is to see Matthews look like a perfect fit.
 
Let's talk about bungles here:

1) AK's contract: I don't know what advice KOC gave on this, but I know it wasn't his call and I'm skeptical he did the convincing to ownership. I'm quite confident it was the other way around.
2) Memo's contract: See above.
3) Harpring's contract: Wasn't bad except for the amount of years. ****ing dumb. See above again.
There is now way of proving that KOC didn't push for these contracts. The AK move could have been a whole different situation. Have you ever thought that AK turned out the way he did because of who KOC brought in...I mean how do you expect AK to want to be a trooper and play great D. When he can't even sniff the ball on the offensive end of the court.
4) Maynor trade: Refer to Harpring and AK contract
Why even waste a pick on Maynor when there were other picks that could have helped our team? I mean Chase Budinger, Sam Young, and DeJuan Blair. Which we had needs at PF and SF before going after a backup PG.
5) Not matching Matthews: Refer to AK and Memo's contract/not really his call
See all of my posts above if we would have offered him what we offered Raja then we wouldn't have the POS and we would have Matthews.
6) 2004 draft: Criticism has foundation
2000 - DeShawn Stevenson = good pick not on team
2001 - Raul Lopez, Jarron Collins = horrible draft
2002 - Curtis Borchardt = horrible draft
2003 - Sasha Pavlovic, Mo Williams = OK draft neither on team
2004 - Kris Humphries, Kirk Snyder = horrible draft
2005 - Deron Williams, CJ Miles, Robert Whaley= Good draft
2006 - Ronnie Brewer, Dee Brown, Paul Millsap = Good draft Dee Brown was given up on way too soon
2007 - Morris Almond, Kyrylo Fesenko = horrible draft MO Almond was given up on way too soon
2008 - Kosta Koufos, Ante Tomic, Tadija Dragicevic = Poor draft we could have had Ibaka that is what most board had us taking
2009 - Eric Maynor, Goran Suton = horrible draft
2010 - Gordon Hayward, Jeremy Evans= TBD love Evans upside I'm not high on Gordon Hayward
2011 - Enes Kanter, Alec Burk = Great picks but look at what we had to do to get this trade away a top 3 PG and lose a lot of games
7) Brewer trade: some say the Jazz got robbed, some know the Jazz pulled a fast one on the Grizzlies. I'm in the latter camp, it wasn't a mistake. Either way, if it comes down to spending the money or not, it's not KOC's.
This started the path to a disgruntled Deron. The team was playing good and the chemistry was high and KOC took the second after Dee Brown of Dwill's close friends and shipped him off for not anything to help the team immediately a strong message you are sending to you superstar.

I think the Jazz should've been far more aggressive from '07-'09 but again, he's only allowed to do what he's allowed to do and had been 3rd in command on FO decisions through most of his tenure. As of now, I think he's finally got the reigns, and I think he's done as good a job as anyone could ask, regardless of how painful it is to see Matthews look like a perfect fit.
The personel moves of the Jazz rest on KOC's head so if push comes to shove he can get his way. He killed us by ridding Boozer when he was a cancer in the locker room, he wanted out, and he was teaching Dwill that when you are a star the team is going to bend over for you.
 
KOC BEGONE said:
Let's talk about bungles here:

1) AK's contract: I don't know what advice KOC gave on this, but I know it wasn't his call and I'm skeptical he did the convincing to ownership. I'm quite confident it was the other way around.
2) Memo's contract: See above.
3) Harpring's contract: Wasn't bad except for the amount of years. ****ing dumb. See above again.
There is now way of proving that KOC didn't push for these contracts. The AK move could have been a whole different situation. Have you ever thought that AK turned out the way he did because of who KOC brought in...I mean how do you expect AK to want to be a trooper and play great D. When he can't even sniff the ball on the offensive end of the court.
4) Maynor trade: Refer to Harpring and AK contract
Why even waste a pick on Maynor when there were other picks that could have helped our team? I mean Chase Budinger, Sam Young, and DeJuan Blair. Which we had needs at PF and SF before going after a backup PG.
5) Not matching Matthews: Refer to AK and Memo's contract/not really his call
See all of my posts above if we would have offered him what we offered Raja then we wouldn't have the POS and we would have Matthews.
6) 2004 draft: Criticism has foundation
2000 - DeShawn Stevenson = good pick not on team
2001 - Raul Lopez, Jarron Collins = horrible draft
2002 - Curtis Borchardt = horrible draft
2003 - Sasha Pavlovic, Mo Williams = OK draft neither on team
2004 - Kris Humphries, Kirk Snyder = horrible draft
2005 - Deron Williams, CJ Miles, Robert Whaley= Good draft
2006 - Ronnie Brewer, Dee Brown, Paul Millsap = Good draft Dee Brown was given up on way too soon
2007 - Morris Almond, Kyrylo Fesenko = horrible draft MO Almond was given up on way too soon
2008 - Kosta Koufos, Ante Tomic, Tadija Dragicevic = Poor draft we could have had Ibaka that is what most board had us taking
2009 - Eric Maynor, Goran Suton = horrible draft
2010 - Gordon Hayward, Jeremy Evans= TBD love Evans upside I'm not high on Gordon Hayward
2011 - Enes Kanter, Alec Burk = Great picks but look at what we had to do to get this trade away a top 3 PG and lose a lot of games
7) Brewer trade: some say the Jazz got robbed, some know the Jazz pulled a fast one on the Grizzlies. I'm in the latter camp, it wasn't a mistake. Either way, if it comes down to spending the money or not, it's not KOC's.
This started the path to a disgruntled Deron. The team was playing good and the chemistry was high and KOC took the second after Dee Brown of Dwill's close friends and shipped him off for not anything to help the team immediately a strong message you are sending to you superstar.

I think the Jazz should've been far more aggressive from '07-'09 but again, he's only allowed to do what he's allowed to do and had been 3rd in command on FO decisions through most of his tenure. As of now, I think he's finally got the reigns, and I think he's done as good a job as anyone could ask, regardless of how painful it is to see Matthews look like a perfect fit.
The personel moves of the Jazz rest on KOC's head so if push comes to shove he can get his way. He killed us by ridding Boozer when he was a cancer in the locker room, he wanted out, and he was teaching Dwill that when you are a star the team is going to bend over for you.
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This is the perfect example of why many posters on this forum don't take you very seriously.
 
KOC BEGONE said:
Wes Matthews would have taken the contract offered to Raja Bell by the Jazz. He is on another team what does it serve him to say all that he has? He said if O'Conner would have gave him a reasonable offer he would have stayed in Utah. Which would have helped us keep Deron. Look it is a dominos effect all started by holding Boozer on the team for far to long and letting his attitude start to get to Dwill.
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HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH!

Matthews would NOT have taken $3M per for 2 years. You are absolutely the most delusional poster ever on this board. And KOC tried to get rid of Boozer. But he didn;t want to take back even WORSE contracts...like Rip's. Everyone believed Carlos was opting OUT. Even Carlos said so himself during the season. And then Carlos went on his self-promotion tour and found he had NO market. It takes two to tango. You can't just trade a player if there is no market. And there were no decent players offered for Carlos. Why do we know that? Because Greg Miller was the most down on Carlos. He would have authorized any reasonable deal. AS it was, getting a trade exception was the best outcome. Like Jefferson or not, that was a deal 2 years in the making. When no vibale offers were made for Carlos, KOC went ahead and put the wheels in motion for Big Al. And that included the trade exception and obtaining another 1st rounder. Why do we know this? Because Kahn told us the trade talks started before the trade deadline, but Utah didn't have the assets Minnesota wanted at the time.
 
KOC BEGONE said:
That is where KOC lucked out big time. YOu can't tell me that he knew that during those last two dog years with Boozer he knew that Minnesota would give up Al for nothing. I think KOC was like the GM of the Bulls thinks Boozer is a great player. Boozer hurt our team by causing drama in the locker room and playing half @sses enough to make himself look good. NO way on earth KOC knew Al Jefferson's former team would trade for Beasley and take a crazy turn to trade one of their top scorers for nothing.
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Yes, he did. He and Kahn talked about a trade the previous year. Kahn disclosed that tidbit. So get your facts straight. Maybe your name should be "Intelligence Begone."
 
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